Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by cinemaniax7 »

Sorry, I'm late to this party.

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by opusthepenguin »

Blue Lion wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote: I would really, REALLY love it if Blue Lion wasn't being facetious here. :)
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I don't get it. :|

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Shmuel »

zakharov wrote:The Chuminator is doing a Reddit AMA at some point today, perhaps we'll get some insight there.
It's starting right about now, if that's of interest.

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by alietr »

Thanks for the indirect shout-out on GMA, Arthur!

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by davey »

gnash wrote:
skullturf wrote:It depends on how you read the clue. Is it "The Statue of Liberty is holding ONE of these high in her right hand" or "The Statue of Liberty is holding one of THESE high in her right hand"?
I forgot to respond to this part, which shows where your mistake lies.

No, it does not depend on this at all. No matter how you read it, "these" refers to the anticipated response. (Do you have any other suggestion as to what else it could refer to?) And *these torch is clearly ungrammatical, whatever English dialect you may speak.
Is the questioner (in J! terms) responding to "these" or to the clause "one of these"? If the latter, why is "one" there? Because the lyric refers to one. The writers could end the clue with "one," but they want to pin the expected response; yet they can't say "one of this" because thorns are quantifiable. But it seems to me "one" is the more important word. You wouldn't say "One of these are sharp..."

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by jwatcher16 »

periwinkle wrote:
TenPoundHammer wrote:
koam wrote:The well-know fact of Edward's abdication for his brother and the other well-known fact that the Prince of Wales is male heir apparent to the throne (which the clue directly implies anyway) is the perfect combination for a classic FJ clue. No trickery, except for the fact that the most recent to not be PoW was also the most recent overall. A rather easy FJ, and I don't even know much about royalty...only the big ones that come up on J! year after year.
But again. How. Do. You. Tell. Them. Apart. I've tried and tried and TRIED to memorize the kings, but I'm always "Okay, was that an Edward, a George, an Aloysius, or a Brfxxccxxmnpcccclllmmnprxvclmnckssqlbb11116? Was it an II, an IV, a VI, or an MCMVI?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonic_v ... in_England

I learned this rhyme from Madeleine L'Engle's "The Other Side of the Sun," but didn't know it had a tune, which helps even more.
The Wikipedia link goes on with alternate versions.

Way cool. Thanks for sharing!

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by jkbrat »

Austin Powers wrote: ... - I'm mad at the show's frustratingly inconsistent standards. Alex decides when to cut folks off for different reasons at different points of time all the time.
Like nails down a chalkboard, inconsistencies bother me as well -- generally, just because they're there (<-- "How do you comfort a grammaphile who's feeling down?"), and specifically, because they can leave the show open to charges of outcome manipulation (as we've seen alluded to in this thread).

But I really don't see the inconsistency in this particular example.

The show apparently, via observation, and explicitly, via Maggie's Green Room spiel, has a policy of allowing contestants the option of changing a response at any point prior to AT ruling against them. Practically speaking, it's not possible for contestants to exercise this option very often, as responses considered to be blatantly out in left field are ruled incorrect almost immediately (which makes sense, as the game would be interminably slow if AT paused after every single incorrect response). If, however, a response is or sounds to be somewhat close to the correct response, AT will often pause briefly before ruling -- maybe to check his list of acceptable response variations, maybe to look over at the judges, or maybe just to see if the contestant misspoke in the rush of responding. This pause allows contestants to self-correct and can help them, but only if they do, in fact, know the correct response. If they don't, then they're not likely to come up with it no matter how long of a pause AT takes.

So back to this game. On Diana's DD, she gave a response (peptide) that sounded very similar to the correct response (peptic). AT paused, Diana gave another response during the pause, and she was ruled correct. On Arthur's PHILOSOPHY $2000 clue, he gave a response (a postiori) that sounded very similar to the correct response (a posteriori). AT paused, Arthur did not give another response during the pause, and he was ruled incorrect.

Both responses sounded similar enough to the correct responses to warrant a pause, both responses were given a pause, and both pauses were of approximately the same duration (at least as measured by my sophisticated time-measurement system ["one ringy-dingy, two ringy-dingy"]). Perhaps it appeared inconsistent as the outcomes were so noticeably different -- Diana was able to capitalize on her pause (perhaps because she knew the correct response) while Arthur was not (perhaps because he didn't) -- but the process was the same.

Arthur did get kind of a wonky DD (Shhhh.... it happens sometimes), but his response of "egoism" doesn't sound even remotely close to the expected response of cynicism, so it seems unlikely that he simply fumbled the word as it came out. Also, egoism is an existing, though incorrect in this context, doctrine. Hence, it can immediately be ruled as an incorrect response. As has been pointed out, "peptide ulcer" is not an existing thing, nor is "a postiori" an existing type of reasoning so these, by the conventions of the game, are given the benefit of the maybe-they-just-misspoke pause while "egoism" is not.

One can certainly argue for or against having such a policy as part of the game, but I don't think one can make the argument that the policy wasn't applied consistently (at least in this game).

On the other hand, I'm not sure about the consistent application of other policies, such as the one regarding what happens in cases where AT asks the contestant to repeat a response (as opposed to just pausing) -- there seem to be conflicting examples of whether or not one is allowed to change a response instead of simply repeating what was said the first time. Since this happened quite recently (and quite significantly), I can see this contributing to an overall (and perhaps justified) sense of inconsistency, but I just wanted to point out that I don't think it applied to today's game and to Diana's DD response.
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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by harrumph »

The GMA producers did an excellent job with the explanatory intro.

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by MarkBarrett »

With so many posts I may have missed it posted previously. If so, sorry.


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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by econgator »

jkbrat wrote:On the other hand, I'm not sure about the consistent application of other policies, such as the one regarding what happens in cases where AT asks the contestant to repeat a response (as opposed to just pausing) -- there seem to be conflicting examples of whether or not one is allowed to change a response instead of simply repeating what was said the first time. Since this happened quite recently (and quite significantly), I can see this contributing to an overall (and perhaps justified) sense of inconsistency, but I just wanted to point out that I don't think it applied to today's game and to Diana's DD response.
That's the part that bothers me: when Alex asks for a repeat and gets something different.

I'm fine with a contestant changing a response in a pause. So long as there's no ruling, no problem. For those of you who don't like this, do you also think that Alex should immediately neg someone who fails to answer in the form of a question in DJ (even if there is time left on the lights)? One may be wrong in content and the other wrong in form, but wrong is wrong. So, if you neg one, you need to start negging the other.

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by jwatcher16 »

jkbrat wrote:
Austin Powers wrote: ... - I'm mad at the show's frustratingly inconsistent standards. Alex decides when to cut folks off for different reasons at different points of time all the time.
Like nails down a chalkboard, inconsistencies bother me as well -- generally, just because they're there (<-- "How do you comfort a grammaphile who's feeling down?"), and specifically, because they can leave the show open to charges of outcome manipulation (as we've seen alluded to in this thread).

But I really don't see the inconsistency in this particular example.

The show apparently, via observation, and explicitly, via Maggie's Green Room spiel, has a policy of allowing contestants the option of changing a response at any point prior to AT ruling against them. Practically speaking, it's not possible for contestants to exercise this option very often, as responses considered to be blatantly out in left field are ruled incorrect almost immediately (which makes sense, as the game would be interminably slow if AT paused after every single incorrect response).




On the other hand, I'm not sure about the consistent application of other policies, such as the one regarding what happens in cases where AT asks the contestant to repeat a response (as opposed to just pausing) -- there seem to be conflicting examples of whether or not one is allowed to change a response instead of simply repeating what was said the first time. Since this happened quite recently (and quite significantly), I can see this contributing to an overall (and perhaps justified) sense of inconsistency, but I just wanted to point out that I don't think it applied to today's game and to Diana's DD response.
I've snipped quite a bit out... but very thoughtful response. I have been following this thread closely and yes, these "inconsistencies" have made me wonder. Interesting that jkbrat points out that the "inconsistency" most talked about on this thread may not be one to worry about and may not really be an inconsistency. The other, the asking for a repeat may be, and I'm sure we've noticed examples of that.

I hope that the things are handled better in the future so that things are more consistent and also have every appearance of being so. And I hope they are more careful of accepting wrong answers (someone gave some past examples of that.)

I also hope that TPTB won't work to keep out new "Arthurs". I think a variety of player types and styles of play help to keep things interesting. And if - that's IF - TPTB or Alex or whoever "wanted him gone" - I would have to agree that such a desire wouldn't be the smartest one. Didn't Arthur bring a lot of attention to the show? DId he help the ratings (does anyone know?)? Maybe they did and maybe they didn't, but wouldn't they just be shooting themselves in the foot by doing so?

It's funny... yes, earlier on, I thought it was time for a new champion. Then As Arthur kept winning and after reading his thoughtful posts here, I warmed up to him quite a bit.

Maybe an idea really would be to reinstitute a cap on the number of regular games a contestant can win. Let's say 10. Most will never get that far, but if one did, he or she could retire "undefeated" - and TPTB wouldn't have to worry too much about annoying personalities if they knew they would only be around for only so many games at the outside.

Sorry for rambling - but this whole episode has given me lots to think about.

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Re: Arthur's Daily Double Dilemma

Post by Vanya »

econgator wrote:
El Jefe wrote:Could someone who is more knowledgable about philosophy talk me through this clue:

"ANTISTHENES BEGAN THIS -ISM WITH THE VIEW THAT SELF-INTEREST IS THE PRIMARY MOTIVE OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR"

Ok, clearly A-man started Cynicism* but where does the [self-interest = primary motive of human behavior] comes in? It sounds like the clue should have read "ANTISTHENES BEGAN THIS -ISM WITH THE VIEW THAT YOU SHOULD GET RID OF YOUR STUFF AND ROUGH IT" The clue makes sense only if you equate self-interest with self-sufficiency (or egoistic with independent?) The word 'interest' clearly does double-duty for both 'attention' and 'concern' so I think that's where Arthur erred (along with almost all of us?) but I think if they had used 'ascetic' or 'avoidance of wealth and power' it would have been a better clue.

*even though he didn't call it that, Marx wasn't a Marxist, Christ not a Christian, et al
That's what cynicism is, yes? Believing that people act primarily in their own best interests?

And Antisthenes was a member of the Cynics (along with Diogenes, et. al.), so that's where the name came from.
No they mistook Ayn Rand for Antisthenes.

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by dhkendall »

MarkBarrett wrote:With so many posts I may have missed it posted previously. If so, sorry.
That was ... well ... different from the Arthur I saw on "national TV".
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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by VAdame »

TenPoundHammer » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:28 pm
4/5 in "Rhyme Trebek". What the heck was $1000 talking about? Tanker on the rocks = wreck? Don't get it.
I meant to answer this last night, but it looks like no one else did:
"SHIP-wreck," dude!

I see the Prince of Wales dead horse has been soundly beaten, so I won't chime in on that!

But you guys know who the FIRST English Prince of Wales was, right? Story (probably apocryphal) is that Edward I (Longshanks, from Braveheart!) promised his Welsh subjects a ruler "Born in Wales, who did not speak a word of English." And then presented them with his own newborn son, who of course spoke no English nor any other language!

Considering that the Plantagenets spoke Norman French at the time, it's probably just a legend ;)

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by CoachP »

dhkendall wrote:
MarkBarrett wrote:With so many posts I may have missed it posted previously. If so, sorry.
That was ... well ... different from the Arthur I saw on "national TV".
That. Was. Awesome!
Congratulations Arthur, on your run, and hope you'll post about the last game when you are ready.

I did notice this-it seemed that this week (M-W games) that Arthur went more for TDD's than he had previously. In his final game it made sense to me, but the other times it seemed out of character (or at least counter to previous game strategy).

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by CoachP »

amoore wrote:
a1srvng wrote:It's a show, man. Not a shortcut to a new house.
My new house vehemently disagrees with you.
Well played sir, well played.

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by gnash »

davey wrote:
gnash wrote:
skullturf wrote:It depends on how you read the clue. Is it "The Statue of Liberty is holding ONE of these high in her right hand" or "The Statue of Liberty is holding one of THESE high in her right hand"?
I forgot to respond to this part, which shows where your mistake lies.

No, it does not depend on this at all. No matter how you read it, "these" refers to the anticipated response. (Do you have any other suggestion as to what else it could refer to?) And *these torch is clearly ungrammatical, whatever English dialect you may speak.
Is the questioner (in J! terms) responding to "these" or to the clause "one of these"?
There are two different senses of "responding to".

Your question makes sense is if "A responds to X" is taken to mean "X triggers the psychological reaction in A which drives A to verbalize an answer (question, response)". Thinking of it that way is probably helpful in explaining why people give a singular or plural response, but it is irrelevant to the discussion of what the acceptable responses to the clue in the game were.

OTOH, if you mean formally, what the "question" (response) responds to, then it is clearly neither. It cannot be a response to an isolated word or phrase, but to the whole sentence (clue). In this context (which is the relevant one for validity of responses), your question is not helpful at all.
If the latter, why is "one" there? Because the lyric refers to one.
Yes, same as in the Statue of Liberty hypothetical example. You are trying to make a big deal out of a trivial observation.
The writers could end the clue with "one,"
That makes no sense, and is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter what word the clue ends with. Besides, I challenge you (though purely for gamesmanship, as it would not contribute meaningfully to the discussion) to rewrite the clue to end in "one" and make sense.
but they want to pin the expected response; yet they can't say "one of this" because thorns are quantifiable.

No. They can't say "one of this" because that would be completely unidiomatic and ungrammatical (other than as part of a longer expression like "one of this bunch").
But it seems to me "one" is the more important word. You wouldn't say "One of these are sharp..."
The "more important" word in our present context is the word that needs to be matched. "One" is already matched - it has a full complement in the clue ("of these"). But "these" is a determiner without a noun phrase, so that is the word that's seeking completion in the response.

Your last sentence is just a red herring, as it has no logical connection to this argument.

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by Vanya »

What is the actual Jeopardy clue you 2 are discussing?

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by lieph82 »

This is just a preview of how much fun Jeopardy! discussions will be once TBTB start requiring correct answers to be either singular or plural.

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Re: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Post by gnash »

Vanya wrote:What is the actual Jeopardy clue you 2 are discussing?
SO SAD for $400

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