Wednesday, March 12, 2014 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Volante]

Welcome to JBoard, your number one source for learning about ulcers.

And getting them. Geeze, 15 16 pages...

At the very least, we can say this. It's not an issue that the judges could have (responsibly) ruled on quickly. They'd have seen numerous search hits for serious-sounding medical articles coupled with no easily findable (unless someone cares to embarrass me) authoritative declaration of the term's incorrectness. That made it wise and proper to move slowly on a ruling, especially considering the stakes. During the window provided by this prudent pause, Diana provided the expected (and only proper?) response and preempted a potential problem. I'm seeing that as a positive outcome to a difficult situation in which all parties did the right thing.

^^
One point of order that I didn't see brought up is that if you match the card, you're right, and we move on.
If do not match the card, the judges will still look up your answer and verify that you are, in fact, 100% wrong. This is why answers (See: Montys) get reversed. They always seem to err on the side of "even if this has only a one in a million chance of being right, we HAVE to accept it."

I can't recall the last time a DD was reversed. Maybe due to the nature of a DD, they can't reverse it later (I recall Roger Craig mentioning DDs have different time rules). So it may not be on the card correct (which is the second best kind of correct) but it might still be possibly correct, and the judges need to be 100% sure before ruling. Alex likely was waiting for this, and since Diana hadn't been explicitly ruled incorrect, her window is still open, which allowed her to give the on the card response, saving us from the debate to whether the judges should've/n't accepted 'peptide ulcer'.

BTW, what the hell was with that peptide question? She said peptide. It's wrong. Don't give her the chance to change it. This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

It's your call, but you might want to cut the kid some slack.

Rex

I'm not mad at the "kid" (a grown woman) - I'm mad at the show's frustratingly inconsistent standards. Alex decides when to cut folks off for different reasons at different points of time all the time.

And, BTW, peptide != peptic. The only reason she got it right was because Alex basically suggested to her that her initially answer was wrong. I'm a little surprised more folks aren't having a problem with this.

Sorry, my bad. I was quoting from memory. What I meant to say was, "Summer of her third year, she and her squad went down in a chopper accident in the Med. Bad - pilot, crew killed. That kid spent ten months in traction, another year learning to walk again. Did her fourth year from the hospital. Now it's up to you, Charlie, but you might consider cuttin' the kid a little slack."

Rex

Jesus. I can't even get my own jokes. Time to retire.

*Citizen Kane applause* I so needed that diversion halfway through this thread

Went with George I, after ruling out William of Orange. Totally forgot about the abdication (King's Speech is 162 on my Netflix queue) and William IV. As soon as Alex said 'brother' I headslapped. Very nice clue though.

[periwinkle]

This excellent post at io9 put me in mind of this pronunciation discussion, as well as the insistence (in this thread or a different one, I can't recall) that people who pronounce mary/Mary/merry differently than you do are "wrong," when it's actually a dialect variation.

http://io9.com/in-defense-of-talking-funny-1541352143

"Dialects are a funny thing: everyone speaks one, but we only notice them when they've been dislocated. They're part of the reason why we have five listed pronunciations of "towards" in the Online Dictionary; they're the birthplace of words both loved ("kerfuffle") and despised ("irregardless"); they're the linguistic air we live and move and have our being in.

To get technical, dialects are varieties of a language that have their own set of speakers with their own vocabulary, grammatical rules, and accent, and they can be regional, socioeconomic, ethnic, tonal, and even a combination thereof. American English has eight major dialects–or 24, or hundreds, depending on who you ask and what they define as a "dialect." Most of us don't just speak a dialect, but switch between several depending on where, why, and how we are. And this is frustrating for the people who think that language shouldn't be bound by culture, era, or region: that one kind of English (usually theirs) is good enough for every single English speaker in the world, all the time."

[koam]

The key to this FJ, and many FJs, is to stop and think, "What are they asking?" And that question can be answered with, "What are they telling us?" In most cases, it's all there because they're trying to tell us.

In this case, why are they telling us that he wasn't Prince of Wales before becoming the monarch? Well, what's the significance of PoW? Consider why they put it that way and you know that they're looking for a King who wasn't expected to be King....and the most recent instance of that.

But it's the pattern for FJs. Deconstruct the clues and figure out why they're giving certain details or using certain signature words.

A friend who I watch with isn't that strong in FJs. He'll say, "I don't know," right away. So I pause it and always ask him, "what are they getting at with this question?"...he usually starts with something more obvious, on the surface. But asked to think about it more, he zones in on certain keywords or facts presented. He may not have the trivia knowledge to solve all of them, but the process helps to rattle his cage and think through the matter, often resulting in his coming up with the correct response....one that he had no idea that he knew when Alex first read the FJ clue.

This is a Jeopardy! strategy that should be added to the list of strategies. Deconstruct the clue and figure out what they're getting at. You might be surprised that you know the correct response when it doesn't, at first, seem to you that you do.

[TenPoundHammer]

This is a Jeopardy! strategy that should be added to the list of strategies. Deconstruct the clue and figure out what they're getting at. You might be surprised that you know the correct response when it doesn't, at first, seem to you that you do.

Every time I try the strategy, it never works. "Okay, Prince of Wales. Do I know any Princes of Wales? No. Dead end. There are 40 billion kings called Something the Somethingth, and I'm still at a…" Oh wait, I already said that.

Or take for instance, this one. The path to this one is incredibly easy. What's Nepal known for? Mount Everest. Who isn't from Nepal, but is associated with Nepal? Edmund Hillary, the first guy to reach the summit of Mount Everest.

Or "JFK" + "speech" + "two words" somehow failing to get me as far as "ask not". I even went "What the heck speech was JFK known for?!?" when that clue came up, even though I'm pretty sure I knew of his "Ask not" speech in elementary school. It's as if even the most basic knowledge completely falls out of my head in a 30-second time span.

Or more egregiously (March 11 spoiler)…

Spoiler

getting as far as "rescuing children falling from a cliff" = "catch" but completely failing to pull up a single book with "Catch" in the title even though I am very familiar with the fact that "The Catcher in the Rye" exists. Heck, not even the most obvious wrong answer, "Catch-22" — a book whose existence I'm also very well aware of — came to mind.

[econgator]

In the Pittsburgh area, where I grew up and where there's a town, museums, and libraries of that name, it's always been pronounced
"Car-nay-ghee." It wasn't until I moved away and started hanging out with the intelligentsia at Carnegie Hall that I heard "Car-nuh-ghee."

If I'm saying his name, I use -nay-; if I'm talking about the building, I use -nuh-. *shrug*

[OldSchoolChamp]

[M]ost fellow Vermonters who watched (a 1996 Weekend Update with) Norm MacDonald probably cringed when he butchered one of our town names by pronouncing Vergennes as \ver-jinnies\ and not \ver-jenz\. We also have (primarily because of French influences) Charlotte as \shar-LOT\ not \SHAR-lit\.

Not to mention LYE-ma (not LEE-ma), Ohio; KAIR-o (not KYE-ro), Illinois; New MAD-rid (not New Ma-DRID), Missouri; Ma-RIN (not MAR-in) County, California; BER-lin (not Ber-LIN), New Hampshire; HOW-ston (not HUE-ston) Street in Manhattan; Cle-MENT (not CLEM-ent) Street in San Francisco; and numerous other examples that escape me at the moment.
 

[TenPoundHammer]

Charlotte, Michigan, pronounced shar-LOT. I bought gas there yesterday.

[MarkBarrett]

[M]ost fellow Vermonters who watched (a 1996 Weekend Update with) Norm MacDonald probably cringed when he butchered one of our town names by pronouncing Vergennes as \ver-jinnies\ and not \ver-jenz\. We also have (primarily because of French influences) Charlotte as \shar-LOT\ not \SHAR-lit\.

Not to mention LYE-ma (not LEE-ma), Ohio; KAIR-o (not KYE-ro), Illinois; New MAD-rid (not New Ma-DRID), Missouri; Ma-RIN (not MAR-in) County, California; BER-lin (not Ber-LIN), New Hampshire; HOW-ston (not HUE-ston) Street in Manhattan; Cle-MENT (not CLEM-ent) Street in San Francisco; and numerous other examples that escape me at the moment.
 

There are plenty of San Francisco streets to test residents vs. visitors:

Vicente
Taraval
Quintara
Kirkham
Gough
Kearney

[econgator]

[M]ost fellow Vermonters who watched (a 1996 Weekend Update with) Norm MacDonald probably cringed when he butchered one of our town names by pronouncing Vergennes as \ver-jinnies\ and not \ver-jenz\. We also have (primarily because of French influences) Charlotte as \shar-LOT\ not \SHAR-lit\.

Not to mention LYE-ma (not LEE-ma), Ohio; KAIR-o (not KYE-ro), Illinois; New MAD-rid (not New Ma-DRID), Missouri; Ma-RIN (not MAR-in) County, California; BER-lin (not Ber-LIN), New Hampshire; HOW-ston (not HUE-ston) Street in Manhattan; Cle-MENT (not CLEM-ent) Street in San Francisco; and numerous other examples that escape me at the moment.
 

I used to live in Alachua (ah-LATCH-oo-ah) County, which contains the city of Alachua (ah-latch-oo-AY).

[dnbguy]

In the Pittsburgh area, where I grew up and where there's a town, museums, and libraries of that name, it's always been pronounced
"Car-nay-ghee." It wasn't until I moved away and started hanging out with the intelligentsia at Carnegie Hall that I heard "Car-nuh-ghee."

If I'm saying his name, I use -nay-; if I'm talking about the building, I use -nuh-. *shrug*

That is similar to the case of philanthropist George Peabody. He was born in Massachusetts in a town that is now named for him, and he also founded the Peabody Institute and Library in Baltimore. The town is PEA-buh-dee, but most people refer to the Institute in Baltimore as pea-BAW-dee.

[alietr]

I used to live in Alachua (ah-LATCH-oo-ah) County, which contains the city of Alachua (ah-latch-oo-AY).

Now they're just screwing with us.

That is similar to the case of philanthropist George Peabody. He was born in Massachusetts in a town that is now named for him, and he also founded the Peabody Institute and Library in Baltimore. The town is PEA-buh-dee, but most people refer to the Institute in Baltimore as pea-BAW-dee.

In Baltimore, most people refer to him as 'hun'.

[ArthurChu]

If anyone cares, my AMA is here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2 ... contestant

Feel free to ask me anything I didn't answer there.

[jjwaymee]

Feel free to ask me anything I didn't answer there.

You said that the "McDarmand-gate" incident had to be re-taped after Alex initially ruled you correct. Did they just re-shoot Alex's ruling of your response, or did they also make you re-state your incorrect response to the clue for one continuous take? Because if it's the latter, that's a real dick move.

[dhkendall]

If anyone cares, my AMA is here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2 ... contestant

Feel free to ask me anything I didn't answer there.

How have you been able to keep all the women away once they hear you are Arthur Chu Jeopardy Champion?

[Rex Kramer]

If anyone cares, my AMA is here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2 ... contestant

Feel free to ask me anything I didn't answer there.

How have you been able to keep all the women away once they hear you are Arthur Chu Jeopardy Champion?

You mean "Arthur Chu Conspicuously Married Jeopardy! Champion".

Rex.

[gnash]

What is the actual Jeopardy clue you 2 are discussing?

SO SAD for $400

Well obviously the correct response is, "What is its thorn?" Now in the statue of Liberty example, it could go either way. "These" leads one to say, "What are torches," but she is holding only one, so "What is a torch?" is fine too. Before you get all outraged, gnash, listen to the native speaker.

It is interesting that it wasn't obvious to you how to find the clue, but it is obvious to you what "the correct response" is.

[gnash]

You're right that I'm less interested in the grammatical rule than in the "psychology" of why the singular response sounds so natural to some of us. That's why I started with a question, not a categorical statement. I never had a doubt that both responses are “acceptable” for J!

Well, then we agree on the verdict.

If I had doubt about the grammar, you may be pleased to learn I’m coming down on your side, though your arguments have been less helpful than your challenge, which I’ve puzzled over. Not over a solution, here it is-

In a 1988 hit, Poison lamented that "Every Rose Has" one

…but why you think that “makes no sense.” If it was a clue in a crossword puzzle we’d have no trouble knowing what should go in the blanks.

Of course this makes sense. But it is a different clue than the one in the game. What I said didn't make sense was to isolate a word (or a few words) and say that the response was to that particular word or phrase, when the response is to the entire clue (i.e., sentence). Arguably this alternative clue requires a singular answer, especially since the contextual (what's in the lyrics) agrees with the grammatical. I think it would still be contrary to the traditions of Jeopardy! to reject a response based on the grammatical number alone. (Plus, the wording of the clue does not follow the Jeopardy! style, as you bring up next.)

But J! writers use “these” and “this” as quick markers (or “pins,” as I said) to where the intended response should come from – 36 times in Wednesday’s game, according to the archive. It’s Jeopardy! style, but not necessary to follow the logic of the clue. It's not there to pin the response as plural.

And, as I've said several times, they don't penalize contestants for the number mismatch, whichever way it goes.

However, I still maintain that the argument against penalizing is even stronger if the supposedly "only correct" response would not be a proper grammatical match for the clue.

If I was solving a crossword puzzle, though, and the answer didn’t come to mind, I’d know another thing: the intended answer is singular. If the clue was

In a 1988 hit, Poison lamented that "Every Rose Has" one of these

I’d feel safe putting an s in the last blank. Thinking about the question in those terms, rather than through J! where so often number isn’t important, was most helpful.

I have no quarrel with that.

[gnash]

With the spelling out of pronunciations, it helps to capitalize the syllable with the primary accent.

As for Carnegie.... Andrew and Dale used different pronunciations.

Somewhere I read that about Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt, too. And then, somewhere else, I read that that was incorrect. Unfortunately, I've never encountered a recording of TR pronouncing his name.

[gnash]

[M]ost fellow Vermonters who watched (a 1996 Weekend Update with) Norm MacDonald probably cringed when he butchered one of our town names by pronouncing Vergennes as \ver-jinnies\ and not \ver-jenz\. We also have (primarily because of French influences) Charlotte as \shar-LOT\ not \SHAR-lit\.

Not to mention LYE-ma (not LEE-ma), Ohio; KAIR-o (not KYE-ro), Illinois; New MAD-rid (not New Ma-DRID), Missouri; Ma-RIN (not MAR-in) County, California; BER-lin (not Ber-LIN), New Hampshire; HOW-ston (not HUE-ston) Street in Manhattan; Cle-MENT (not CLEM-ent) Street in San Francisco; and numerous other examples that escape me at the moment.
 

Dee-VAHN (not DEV-on) Street in Chicago confuses every newcomer.

My cousin lives in BER-lin, CT. He has heard from the locals (though the story may be apocryphal) that it was pronounced Ber-LIN until WW1. It was a simpler change than with Berlin, ON, which became Kitchener.

[Woof]

My cousin lives in BER-lin, CT. He has heard from the locals (though the story may be apocryphal) that it was pronounced Ber-LIN until WW1. It was a simpler change than with Berlin, ON, which became Kitchener.

That story is likely not apocryphal. The anti-German sentiment here (as in the UK) was so strong that many people and things tried to disassociate themselves from German names.