On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

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zerobandwidth
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On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by zerobandwidth »

To expand on a Tweet I blurted out last night, and with an apologetic disclaimer in case this has been beaten to death before on this forum in the past, the typical use of "No harm, no foul" on J!, while fun fodder for drinking games and stylish T-shirt designs¹, has always irked me a little. A triple-stumper in which all three contestants give an incorrect response obviously harms all three of them. However, more significantly than that, the damage done to the two trailing players is always proportionally worse (sometimes catastrophically so) than the damage done to the leader.

Last night's match was a prime example of this. I don't remember the exact scores, but here's a similar illustration. Consider the scoreboard Alice $8000, Bob $4800, Carol $1800. Alex has called less than a minute to go in DJ!. Carol selects a $2000 clue to try to get back into the game, but all three contestants swing and miss on it. The scores become Alice $6000, Bob $2800, Carol -$200.
  • If more clues are on the board, then Alice clearly has a bigger advantage over Bob as time winds down, because she now has more than twice Bob's score. Meanwhile, Carol now risks Panic Mode (see the infamous #5749, #6416, and #7024).
  • If a clue chosen soon after this is a Daily Double, then Alice clearly has the advantage no matter who finds it. If Alice finds it, she can play clock management and lock the game with a $5 wager. If Bob finds it, he must bet much more aggressively to give himself a chance in FJ!, and is thus at greater risk of knocking himself out of the game. And even if Carol finds it, the best she can hope for is to keep herself on stage for FJ! to watch Alice or Bob win, and her finding it might seal the win for Alice by denying those points from Bob.
  • If the round ends here, then a game that could have been contested in FJ! has instead become a lock for Alice.
I would be interested in combing the J! Archive database for games in which the last and most game-affecting of these scenarios actually played out. (For maximum irony, discover in how many of these games Alex said NHNF for the clue that locked the game.)

So with all love and respect for Alex…
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¹ This plug was not solicited. ;)
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by alietr »

Yes, we have long recognized Alex's lack of mathematical awareness whenever he makes that comment.
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by zerobandwidth »

alietr wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:52 am Yes, we have long recognized Alex's lack of mathematical awareness whenever he makes that comment.
I humbly offer my condolences and regrets to the family of the horse to which I just gave a tardy and unnecessary beating. ;)
Battle of the Brains contestant, 1995-1997
Jeopardy! match 34:13, 2017-09-27
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by twelvefootboy »

zerobandwidth wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:45 am
alietr wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:52 am Yes, we have long recognized Alex's lack of mathematical awareness whenever he makes that comment.
I humbly offer my condolences and regrets to the family of the horse to which I just gave a tardy and unnecessary beating. ;)
This is why you should avoid cliches like the plague! :lol:
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by squarekara »

zerobandwidth wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:45 am
alietr wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:52 am Yes, we have long recognized Alex's lack of mathematical awareness whenever he makes that comment.
I humbly offer my condolences and regrets to the family of the horse to which I just gave a tardy and unnecessary beating. ;)
Heck, no! You just sold me on the drinking game. If I can incorporate "NOW's the time for. . . "--better yet.
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by zerobandwidth »

squarekara wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:50 pm Heck, no! You just sold me on the drinking game. If I can incorporate "NOW's the time for. . . "--better yet.
Ooh, yeah, I'll have to add that one to my rule set.
  • (1) An incorrect response turns out to be a correct response later in the same round.
    • (+1) …and Alex says "Now's the time for X"
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by opusthepenguin »

squarekara wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:50 pm
zerobandwidth wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:45 am
alietr wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:52 am Yes, we have long recognized Alex's lack of mathematical awareness whenever he makes that comment.
I humbly offer my condolences and regrets to the family of the horse to which I just gave a tardy and unnecessary beating. ;)
Heck, no! You just sold me on the drinking game. If I can incorporate "NOW's the time for. . . "--better yet.
Absolutely! And if he says "Rrrrrobbie Burns!" you have to drink as much as you can of what's left in the bottle and poor the rest on your head. (This ain't a fraternity, yo. We game drink semi-responsibly.)
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by squarekara »

Please add "Alex repronounces a player's foreign-language response, extra points for French" to the rule book. And would "Ooohh, sohrry" be too commonplace to include?
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by zerobandwidth »

Suddenly the drinking game idea is more popular than the original thread.
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by squarekara »

Can you amend the thread title?
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by zerobandwidth »

squarekara wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:38 pm Can you amend the thread title?
We're past that now.
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by squarekara »

One more--"Alex thanks Lindblad Expeditions."
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by Peachbox »

zerobandwidth wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:45 am

. Consider the scoreboard Alice $8000, Bob $4800, Carol $1800.

Wonders if Ted won from the fourth spot. ;)
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by grindcore »

I made a thread about a potential J! drinking game a few years ago - new additions always welcome.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3323&p=200843&
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by cheezguyty »

zerobandwidth wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:45 am
  • If the round ends here, then a game that could have been contested in FJ! has instead become a lock for Alice.
I would be interested in combing the J! Archive database for games in which the last and most game-affecting of these scenarios actually played out. (For maximum irony, discover in how many of these games Alex said NHNF for the clue that locked the game.)
I could find only one game in the Archive that became a runaway due to a triple miss on the last clue of the DJ Round: February 9, 1989 — to which Alex remarked, "No, each of you lost the same amount of money.".
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by kprather895 »

Last time I talked about this scenario with someone, we briefly talked about the idea of a stumped leader purposely ringing in with a not-in-the-form-of-a-question response to try and coax second place into an incorrect rebound.
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by boson »

cheezguyty wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:57 pm I could find only one game in the Archive that became a runaway due to a triple miss on the last clue of the DJ Round: February 9, 1989 — to which Alex remarked, "No, each of you lost the same amount of money.".
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Re: On the subject of "No harm, no foul."

Post by GoodStrategy »

cheezguyty wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:57 pmI could find only one game in the Archive that became a runaway due to a triple miss on the last clue of the DJ Round: February 9, 1989 — to which Alex remarked, "No, each of you lost the same amount of money.".
"No harm, no foul" would not apply in a quarterfinal game with wildcards for another reason too - less money would mean it'd be harder to get a WC if you don't win outright.
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