Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion [SPOILERS]

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HockeyAnnouncerSean
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by HockeyAnnouncerSean »

Austin Powers wrote:
joepozz wrote:For all those who have posted about how slow or lethargic the game seemed, I'll repeat what I've said before. When there's a clue-jumper, the board will usually not get cleared.
I agree. With all due respect to the poster who was on this show, if you're going to do it, it has to be because it works to your advantage. That apparently wasn't the case. Find a category you're good at, build up momentum, then maybe strategically hop to find a DD, or to get higher valued clues in a pinch.

Just hopping around, having someone else answer it, have that person go to the top of a new category altogether, then have you answer that, hop in the middle of a new category... yikes. If you got the DD, you wouldn't have even been in position to make great use of it. Build up some money, then DD hunt. At least it was mainly low valued clues that went unrevealed.
I know this is a subject that evokes some pretty strong feelings on this board and other places, so I'll attempt to explain myself and brace for impact...

I can identify three elements of the game that can be controlled by the player through critical decision-making. The player cannot control the categories or clues, their own knowledge base or recall (in the moment), the knowledge or actions of the other players, Alex's actions, or (possibly controversial) even their own buzzer speed. (I'm not saying the buzzer cannot be mastered--it clearly can, but I don't see it as an act of critical decision making; I suppose if you want to take more of a metaphysical stance about choosing to exercise your will over the buzzer you could make that argument, but I'm not going to.)

The three elements that are controlled by the player's critical decisions: clue selection, wagering (DD and FJ), and how to calibrate their use of educated guessing (i.e. how sure do I need to be that my answer is correct before I'll ring in?)...

In my mind, if a player can gain an advantage in any of these areas, that has the potential to be a game-changer.

The first-time player gets one shot to incorporate these elements into the overall gameplay, with little opportunity for real-world play testing in advance. (Say what you want about the preparation offered by the mock game at the regional interviews and the warm-up/practice sessions before the game, but I don't think you can make an argument that either of these occurs under anything approaching real-game conditions, which include the studio audience, Alex and the intangible "this is really happening!" element.) I suppose if someone has done quiz bowl or academic decathlon in school or if one has previously been a contestant on a national TV program, these things could help a great deal, but most contestants have not done them. (I would start quoting Eminem's "Lose Yourself" here, but I think you get the idea...)

Obviously I did not do well in the game with my decisions about when to make educated guesses. I planned a very conservative strategy going in, but frankly the real-game conditions affected me far more than I thought they would and I got buzzer-drunk early in the game.

So much of a player's critical decision making relies upon the psychology of self-perception. For instance, if there is a category on the board I think is in my wheelhouse, I'm much more likely to make an instinctive guess, under the presumption that it will be a more educated guess than if I'm just parsing the clue in a random category.

My self-perception and self-identification as an upcoming Jeopardy! contestant included the following elements: I will probably know more about sports than my competition (and then I ended up against a baseball guy...go figure). I will probably know about the Bible than my competition (due to years of parochial schooling and being a preacher's kid; of course, this ended up being a non-factor). I will probably know more about other categories X, Y and Z than my competition. I am probably more right-brain oriented than my competition. I am probably more comfortable with non-linear thinking and thriving in chaos than my competition....

I don't think board jumping has any value in the search for Daily Doubles (or at least I've never understood the science of it, if indeed there is one), but I specifically chose that strategy in order to create chaos. And I don't think it was the strategy that failed me; in fact, I would have expected it to work best early in the game until my competitors made adjustments to cope with it, and I was strongest (if I may recklessly use that word) early in the game. This is also why I intentionally selected higher dollar values early on, because I hoped to gain a quick advantage amidst the chaos. I think the vitriol with which some people react to this strategy at least bears out the principle behind it; if it makes people this upset, that may be something I can exploit if it does not upset me. (In fact, my strategy appeared to be the cause of a number of in-game technical errors early on; I don't think the board operators were ready for that on their Monday morning! We ended up having at least two clues that were read but never appeared on screen, and two clues in which the wrong dollar value disappeared afterward and they had to briefly stop to reset the board.)

It certainly can be argued that because I selected this strategy and because I fared poorly the two are causally related, but I did not experience it that way. Call it self-deception if you'd like, but I clearly made some legitimate mistakes in one of the other areas of critical decision making (e.g. ringing in on half-heard clues and with under-educated guesses) and to me, when combined with some of the uncontrollable factors, it just wasn't my game or my day.

I took my one shot with an intentional strategy I don't think would work for most people. For me, I still think it was the right decision, because I know me best. There certainly is room for question about the assumptions I made, but in my sample of actual games played n=1, so I would hesitate to draw any larger conclusions.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Paucle »

GPHemsley wrote:
HockeyAnnouncerSean wrote:-"Layla" (groan...I heard "Harrison" and "Clapton" and something about a girl and the early adrenaline had me signaling before I knew what was happening)
I thought for sure you would have gotten those points back. Layla was also written for Pattie Boyd.
but not by George Harrison, which I think the clue required.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by GPHemsley »

Paucle wrote:
GPHemsley wrote:
HockeyAnnouncerSean wrote:-"Layla" (groan...I heard "Harrison" and "Clapton" and something about a girl and the early adrenaline had me signaling before I knew what was happening)
I thought for sure you would have gotten those points back. Layla was also written for Pattie Boyd.
but not by George Harrison, which I think the clue required.
Well, the response they were looking for was in fact Pattie Boyd, and Sean responded with Layla. Since Layla (the person in the song) was inspired by or represented Pattie Boyd (the person they were looking for), I think the connection should have been accepted... or at least prompted for more specificity.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Austin Powers »

I should be clear when I say that the strategy itself is not a "bad" one, and I am not one of those who is virulently opposed to it. I could see myself doing it, perhaps. HOWEVER, if you are the new contestant, and you're half hearing questions and are otherwise just a little bit out of flow, I suspect that taking such an approach will not HELP matters. If you are having some jitters early, it is better to do it on the $200 questions, rather than burn off or miss the $800 questions. Get three questions in a row right, get a feel for the buzzer, then throw the curveball. While it's a Monday game, there's a defending champion that is returning, so any atypical strategy risks rewarding him, since he's more experienced. It's a bit of bad luck that the categories were fairly straight forward, so hopping around didn't give you an advantage from deducing what the category was about before others could figure it out.

As for DD hunting, DD's are more likely to be at the bottom of the board - the "science" is just thousands of episodes indicating this. So, when it's early, and you effectively DD hunt by going for higher valued questions, you're taking an important element - wagering - out of the game, by making sure that you'll have so little money when you hit these questions that it almost won't matter what you bet on them. Even later, in DD, when you were hopping around, if you hit a DD, the most you could wager at that point would have been $2000 - at best, by doing that you've taken the DD away from one of the leaders.

LSU saw Georgia Southern run the option against Alabama and assumed it would work if they tried it, too. Good idea on paper, but sometimes the implementation just doesn't work. It happens.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by whoisalexjacob »

HockeyAnnouncerSean wrote:
Austin Powers wrote:
joepozz wrote:For all those who have posted about how slow or lethargic the game seemed, I'll repeat what I've said before. When there's a clue-jumper, the board will usually not get cleared.
I agree. With all due respect to the poster who was on this show, if you're going to do it, it has to be because it works to your advantage. That apparently wasn't the case. Find a category you're good at, build up momentum, then maybe strategically hop to find a DD, or to get higher valued clues in a pinch.

Just hopping around, having someone else answer it, have that person go to the top of a new category altogether, then have you answer that, hop in the middle of a new category... yikes. If you got the DD, you wouldn't have even been in position to make great use of it. Build up some money, then DD hunt. At least it was mainly low valued clues that went unrevealed.
I know this is a subject that evokes some pretty strong feelings on this board and other places, so I'll attempt to explain myself and brace for impact...

I can identify three elements of the game that can be controlled by the player through critical decision-making. The player cannot control the categories or clues, their own knowledge base or recall (in the moment), the knowledge or actions of the other players, Alex's actions, or (possibly controversial) even their own buzzer speed. (I'm not saying the buzzer cannot be mastered--it clearly can, but I don't see it as an act of critical decision making; I suppose if you want to take more of a metaphysical stance about choosing to exercise your will over the buzzer you could make that argument, but I'm not going to.)

The three elements that are controlled by the player's critical decisions: clue selection, wagering (DD and FJ), and how to calibrate their use of educated guessing (i.e. how sure do I need to be that my answer is correct before I'll ring in?)...

In my mind, if a player can gain an advantage in any of these areas, that has the potential to be a game-changer.

The first-time player gets one shot to incorporate these elements into the overall gameplay, with little opportunity for real-world play testing in advance. (Say what you want about the preparation offered by the mock game at the regional interviews and the warm-up/practice sessions before the game, but I don't think you can make an argument that either of these occurs under anything approaching real-game conditions, which include the studio audience, Alex and the intangible "this is really happening!" element.) I suppose if someone has done quiz bowl or academic decathlon in school or if one has previously been a contestant on a national TV program, these things could help a great deal, but most contestants have not done them. (I would start quoting Eminem's "Lose Yourself" here, but I think you get the idea...)

Obviously I did not do well in the game with my decisions about when to make educated guesses. I planned a very conservative strategy going in, but frankly the real-game conditions affected me far more than I thought they would and I got buzzer-drunk early in the game.

So much of a player's critical decision making relies upon the psychology of self-perception. For instance, if there is a category on the board I think is in my wheelhouse, I'm much more likely to make an instinctive guess, under the presumption that it will be a more educated guess than if I'm just parsing the clue in a random category.

My self-perception and self-identification as an upcoming Jeopardy! contestant included the following elements: I will probably know more about sports than my competition (and then I ended up against a baseball guy...go figure). I will probably know about the Bible than my competition (due to years of parochial schooling and being a preacher's kid; of course, this ended up being a non-factor). I will probably know more about other categories X, Y and Z than my competition. I am probably more right-brain oriented than my competition. I am probably more comfortable with non-linear thinking and thriving in chaos than my competition....

I don't think board jumping has any value in the search for Daily Doubles (or at least I've never understood the science of it, if indeed there is one), but I specifically chose that strategy in order to create chaos. And I don't think it was the strategy that failed me; in fact, I would have expected it to work best early in the game until my competitors made adjustments to cope with it, and I was strongest (if I may recklessly use that word) early in the game. This is also why I intentionally selected higher dollar values early on, because I hoped to gain a quick advantage amidst the chaos. I think the vitriol with which some people react to this strategy at least bears out the principle behind it; if it makes people this upset, that may be something I can exploit if it does not upset me. (In fact, my strategy appeared to be the cause of a number of in-game technical errors early on; I don't think the board operators were ready for that on their Monday morning! We ended up having at least two clues that were read but never appeared on screen, and two clues in which the wrong dollar value disappeared afterward and they had to briefly stop to reset the board.)

It certainly can be argued that because I selected this strategy and because I fared poorly the two are causally related, but I did not experience it that way. Call it self-deception if you'd like, but I clearly made some legitimate mistakes in one of the other areas of critical decision making (e.g. ringing in on half-heard clues and with under-educated guesses) and to me, when combined with some of the uncontrollable factors, it just wasn't my game or my day.

I took my one shot with an intentional strategy I don't think would work for most people. For me, I still think it was the right decision, because I know me best. There certainly is room for question about the assumptions I made, but in my sample of actual games played n=1, so I would hesitate to draw any larger conclusions.

It's clear you've thought about this a lot, and I like most of your analysis (except that I think clue-jumping does help with finding dd's because higher values are more likely to have the dd). I agree with you that it's silly to say, based on the result, that the strategy was bad. It just wasn't your day, as you said; if you can't get in with a certain number of correct responses, you're probably not going to win, jumping or not.

Too bad that bible wasn't a category--personally it's one of my weakest so I know how often it does come up.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Tehshigelisok »

John Boy wrote:I heard that the A & P chain is to be bought out by the Stop & Shop Chain, to be known as the Stop & P stores.
I lol'd.

A&P was always the "dirty" store to me. Our local A&P became an independent store in 1992, and it was always rundown and grubby, having had little more than a paint job since it opened in the 70s. And as a strange twist, the local chain that bought it out was so in debt that they were randomly evicted in July 2006, leaving everything on the shelves! A couple months later, they opened the store back up for a couple days and sold off anything that was still good for rock bottom prices.

Their other brand in Michigan, Farmer Jack (to which many A&P stores converted in the mid-1990s), was no better. And generally, ex-A&Ps don't improve if someone else moves in, especially not if they become Save-a-Lot. And really especially not, as is the case in Bay City, if they're the anchor to a rundown shopping mall that lost almost all its stores in the 1990s and sat vacant for 15 years before a thrift shop moved in.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

There are always the Kum & Go gas station/markets scattered throughout the Midwest.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Tehshigelisok »

alietr wrote:There are always the Kum & Go gas station/markets scattered throughout the Midwest.
In Burlington, North Carolina, I found a shopping center that has Dick's Sporting Goods and BJ's Wholesale Club next to each other.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by reddpen »

Without seeing the thread beyond that it has 67 posts so far, I'm precalling that someone gripes about Alex's endless recounting of the bear joke that kept unrevealed 3 clues in the J round and 4 more in DJ. Also, Dan dodged a bullet when Julie overwagered, but that's hardly news.

Judges: Artemis for Diana? [ETA: Thanks, Volante et al.]

FETA: Lach Trash smorgasbord tonight with Pattie Boyd*, A&P, Cenozoic, the Berendt book, and India for Rushdie's birthplace. Should have had (A**)hole Foods [the CEO is a schmuck] and Aegean too.

Handful of misses: SC for MS, Aztec for Incan, dessert for salad (eating roughage after protein has practical digestive benefits), and most hilariously, Kells for Martyrs. Still, with 46R, 4W and 39400, I can't complain about the difficulty, esp. compared with last week's Coryats.

One more desperate Scandinavian guess of TGwtDT. Couldn't think of an Eric the Red movie in time.

*For last night's pub quiz I wrote a question about the late former Fleetwood Mac guitarist who was sleeping with Pattie's sister Jenny in 1973 when she was married to Mick Fleetwood. After firing the guitarist in mid-tour, the band split up and their manager created a fake band to masquerade as the Mac and finish the tour. And all that was before the Buckingham/Nicks and McVie/McVie soap-operatic splits that led to Rumours. Does a band exist with a more convoluted history or more tire-squealing changes in musical direction?
Last edited by reddpen on Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

reddpen wrote:Without seeing the thread beyond that it has 67 posts so far, I'm precalling that someone gripes about Alex's endless recounting of the bear joke that kept unrevealed 3 clues in the J round and 4 more in DJ. Also, Dan dodged a bullet when Julie overwagered, but that's hardly news.

Judges: Artemis for Diana?
Judges say yes.

And actually I don't recall anyone mentioning the bear joke (and I also wouldn't blame it for the covered clue count, personally, either) Edit: just checked, no negative marks toward the bear joke.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by xxaaaxx »

reddpen wrote:Without seeing the thread beyond that it has 67 posts so far, I'm precalling that someone gripes about Alex's endless recounting of the bear joke that kept unrevealed 3 clues in the J round and 4 more in DJ.

Judges: Artemis for Diana?
I didn't mind, since a) I was thinking of the same joke when I heard the story, and b) so many rounds lately have ended with clues unrevealed (seemingly for no reason) that it's almost not worth mentioning anymore.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mam418 »

alietr wrote:There are always the Kum & Go gas station/markets scattered throughout the Midwest.
There's a Pump & Munch in the next town over from mine... no lie. :shock: (gas/convenience store)
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bomtr »

reddpen wrote: *For last night's pub quiz I wrote a question about the late former Fleetwood Mac guitarist who was sleeping with Pattie's sister Jenny in 1973 when she was married to Mick Fleetwood. After firing the guitarist in mid-tour, the band split up and their manager created a fake band to masquerade as the Mac and finish the tour. And all that was before the Buckingham/Nicks and McVie/McVie soap-operatic splits that led to Rumours. Does a band exist with a more convoluted history or more tire-squealing changes in musical direction?
NO! Peter Green>Danny Kirwan>Bob Welch>Lindsey Buckingham and x>Stevie Nicks, who is just annoying and can't sing. The others are just session players, aren't they? Don't seem to have any influence on style...
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by trainman »

GPHemsley wrote:Well, the response they were looking for was in fact Pattie Boyd, and Sean responded with Layla. Since Layla (the person in the song) was inspired by or represented Pattie Boyd (the person they were looking for), I think the connection should have been accepted... or at least prompted for more specificity.
Only if Pattie Boyd ever herself went by the name "Layla." She did not.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by billy pilgrim »

bomtr wrote:
reddpen wrote: *For last night's pub quiz I wrote a question about the late former Fleetwood Mac guitarist who was sleeping with Pattie's sister Jenny in 1973 when she was married to Mick Fleetwood. After firing the guitarist in mid-tour, the band split up and their manager created a fake band to masquerade as the Mac and finish the tour. And all that was before the Buckingham/Nicks and McVie/McVie soap-operatic splits that led to Rumours. Does a band exist with a more convoluted history or more tire-squealing changes in musical direction?
NO! Peter Green>Danny Kirwan>Bob Welch>Lindsey Buckingham and x>Stevie Nicks, who is just annoying and can't sing. The others are just session players, aren't they? Don't seem to have any influence on style...
Well they lost me when Peter Green left.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by harrumph »

John Boy wrote:
I heard that the A & P chain is to be bought out by the Stop & Shop Chain, to be known as the Stop & P stores.
As a courtesy it should be located next to a Target.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by boson »

trainman wrote:
GPHemsley wrote:Well, the response they were looking for was in fact Pattie Boyd, and Sean responded with Layla. Since Layla (the person in the song) was inspired by or represented Pattie Boyd (the person they were looking for), I think the connection should have been accepted... or at least prompted for more specificity.
Only if Pattie Boyd ever herself went by the name "Layla." She did not.
Did she ever go by Pattie Harrison? I couldn't remember her last name and took the 50/50 choice of Harrison over Clapton. Wikipedia doesn't mention it, but a few hits come up on the web.
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

Got home today from work travels and starting to watch my weekly backlog of recordings. Random comments follow.

I had never heard of that movie, so no chance on FJ. Wrote down Vinland, thinking maybe their was some Eric the Red movie I missed. I wasn't sure when he lived, but a quick check shows he was born in Norway in 950 and his father's name was Thorvald, who was called Thor for short by his friends. (OK, I made the last bit up).

Horrible wager. I was thinking "If I'm her, I'm betting however much I can bet and be ahead of him if we both miss. I'm likely going to bomb the fJ, so i'd should probably go with no more than a 'cover his zero bet'".

I'm not a huge fan of board hopping and it made for a choppy game. I especially hate when they jump into the middle of one where the category isn't 100% clear.

Sorry it didn't work out, Sean, but congrats on making the show.

Winn Dixie was bought out by Bi-Lo recently and will drop from NASDAQ. Their markets don't overlap, so they will likely keep the name.

A&P is mostly in the northeast. They had one near where I lived as a kid, but it closed in the mid 1970s. My mother lamented its closing for years as she liked the store. I don't know if it was meant as a joke, but they did buy some old Stop and Shop stores, according to their Wiki page.

While we are taking requests, can we have a poll question asking if we only knew the crossword clue from this board?

that's it for now, on to tomorrow's show!
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Re: Monday, January 9, 2012 Game Recap & Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by dmleach »

Tehshigelisok wrote:Ran Food Chain with ease, retail geek that I am. Surprised A&P was a TS. (And for that matter, that it's still in business anywhere.)
You might be interested in this episode of Fresh Air: an interview with the author of a book on the history of A&P. I caught some of it over the summer and found it fascinating. In fact, I'm glad this came up because it reminded me to pop the book on my Amazon wishlist.
HockeyAnnouncerSean wrote:I usually have two to four wheelhouse categories (other than the wordplay ones, which are also a strength)...
I didn't remember Dan being as strong in wordplay as I think I am, and looking back at our game the correct responses were pretty evenly spread between myself, Molly and him (4-3-2). I say this because it surprised me watching this and future games how often Dan made a beeline for the wordplay columns. You certainly outplayed him in the "finger" column, Sean.

By the way, you didn't happen to audition in Lexington, did you Sean? I could have sworn there was a hockey announcer in my group, but it seems unlikely that you'd choose Kentucky as your tryout spot when you live in Oregon.
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