GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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ParrotRob
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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by ParrotRob »

jeopardyfan939 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:44 pm
ParrotRob wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:18 pm
jeopardyfan939 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:15 pm
And by the way, it was Bleeding Fingers Music who scored the music package for GOAT.
More like Bleeding Ears Music, in my insignificant opinion.
I believe this arrangement of the Jeopardy! music is heavy sounding because of the tournament featuring the three legends going head to head (GOAT is a lot more prestigious than a regular ToC). But if TPTB decide to retire the current music package on the regular version after Season 36 wraps up, I hope they won't use the GOAT arrangement for Season 37.
That makes two of us. I know it's completely subjective, but I found it a bit dissonant and grating.
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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

slam wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:00 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:27 pm
slam wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:24 pm
Not sure if something about this has been posted yet.

In match 1, Ken had the functional equivalent of leading in a 2/3 game. He would win if he got FJ! OR James missed it. In match 2, James was ahead in a non-2/3 game. So, if he made the normal lockout wager (which of course he was going to do with his FJ! record), he was going to win as long as he got FJ! and lose if he didn't.
The first match was a crush lead by Ken; the second match was a 3/4 (functional equivalent) lead by James.
We're saying the same thing (though you added the 3/4 part). When I said leading in a 2/3 game, I meant (as is clear by my description) that I really meant what you are, correctly, calling a crush game. I haven't thought that much about wagering lately, so I'm sorry for pulling the wrong word.
Yes, your terminology was swapped.


And just because I like explaining these things, I'd like to reiterate where the x/(x+1) breakpoints are in two-game matches.
lots of text hidden here
The simplest example is the lock-tie: it is a lock-tie before the second FJ if second place has the exact sum of half first place's score and half of what they led by at the end of the first game. So it goes for each other breakpoint: second place's pre-FJ2 total is x/(x+1) of first place's pre-FJ score plus x/(x+1) of their game 1 lead. Also, because "first place" refers to the player with the highest potential cumulative score, such player needn't have actually led at the end of the first game; if they didn't, then their game 1 lead should be reckoned as a negative number. For example, if the final $2,000 clue in my ToC had been a triple stumper, I would have had a lock-tie over Vijay, and this is how my write-up would have looked (without Jason):

Code: Select all

Vijay:  9200  6800 16000 22800
Stefan: 5800 17000 22800 39800
You can see that Vijay's maximum total of $22,800 is my current total, but we can also crunch the numbers to show that $6,800 is the lock-tie score. Half my total was $8,500, and since I finished the first game $3,400 behind Vijay, half my lead in that game was $-1,700. 8500 - 1700 = 6800.

Here's a two-thirds game, just for fun. In the 2007 Teen Summer Games, Meryl Federman clawed her way back from zero to have the advantage going into FJ in the second game (and won), but the eventual runners-up were in an exact two-thirds position.

Code: Select all

Greg: 25000  6800 31800 38600
Kyle: 18000  9200 27200 36400
Greg, despite having the lower pre-FJ2 total, has the advantage with the higher maximum total. Two thirds of his $6,800 is $4,533 1/3; two thirds of his $7,000 lead at the end of the first game is $4,666 2/3. Put them together and you get $9,200, Kyle's pre-FJ2 score. And if you look closely at the numbers, you'll see that Greg's cumulative total is $4,600 above Kyle's cumulative total, and $4,600 below Kyle's maximum, and being equidistant between another player's current and maximum is the defining feature of a two-thirds lead.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

alietr wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:29 pm
pinkfreud wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:58 pm
History is not my strongest area, but sometimes I get some unexpected help from a pop culture source. The Napoleon/Madison connection instantly came to mind because I am a fan of the Bruce Campbell television series Jack of All Trades, in which Napoleon was played by the incomparable Verne Troyer.
Napoleon was short, but that's overkill.
The show also had George Washington and Ben Franklin live past 1800 so...
The best thing that Neil Armstrong ever did, was to let us all imagine we were him.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

True North wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:06 pm
90 straight minutes of Jeopardy! is incredibly taxing. That second game was a complete blur.
I've been recording the GOAT game and watch it the following afternoon before the normal game. Admittedly, it does mean I have 4-6 pages of thread to catch up on, but it's more energy efficient on the brain.
The best thing that Neil Armstrong ever did, was to let us all imagine we were him.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by gnash »

alietr wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:54 am
gnash wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:41 pm
1969-72 Fisher
Oh, Gnash, you of all people?!?
True fact: I misspelled my wife's name on our wedding day.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Mathew5000 »

Why does Ken say that playing an hour of Jeopardy back-to-back is "something none of us have ever done"? Or was he actually saying it "isn't something none of us have ever done"?

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

Mathew5000 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:50 am
Why does Ken say that playing an hour of Jeopardy back-to-back is "something none of us have ever done"? Or was he actually saying it "isn't something none of us have ever done"?
Usually they've had time to change clothes between games, which allows a moment to regroup. Either that, or he was saying it with a wink to those in the know.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

I'm sure it's been mentioned here somewhere, but how were these games actually taped? Did they just record one day (i.e. two games) per actual day or did they do more? If I had to guess I'd think they did two per day: one hour in the morning and one hour in the afternoon.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

As I understand it the first two matches were recorded in one day and the second two matches were recorded in another day. I suppose we'll know by the end of next Tuesday evening whether a third tape day was required.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by gnash »

Woof wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:50 pm
alietr wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:29 pm
pinkfreud wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:58 pm
History is not my strongest area, but sometimes I get some unexpected help from a pop culture source. The Napoleon/Madison connection instantly came to mind because I am a fan of the Bruce Campbell television series Jack of All Trades, in which Napoleon was played by the incomparable Verne Troyer.
Napoleon was short, but that's overkill.
Or was he?
Napoleon was average height for his time, at least 2 inches taller than Madison and probably not noticeably shorter than John Adams. But he may have been on the short side among the ruling classes. We know Washington and Jefferson were tall even for today's standards, and king George III was described as tall. I don't know how tall the contemporary Austrian emperor Francis II was, but his long and narrow face in portraits suggests he was likely above average height. It's possible that Napoleon's "short" stature was also exaggerated as an allusion to his humble origin.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

I was with Ken in the second FJ. No clue on the first one, tried to come up with some religious text but got nowhere.

I also considered Prince Albert for the second FJ.

Brad’s poor play has been the biggest surprise so far.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof »

gnash wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 pm
Woof wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:50 pm
alietr wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:29 pm
pinkfreud wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:58 pm
History is not my strongest area, but sometimes I get some unexpected help from a pop culture source. The Napoleon/Madison connection instantly came to mind because I am a fan of the Bruce Campbell television series Jack of All Trades, in which Napoleon was played by the incomparable Verne Troyer.
Napoleon was short, but that's overkill.
Or was he?
Napoleon was average height for his time, at least 2 inches taller than Madison and probably not noticeably shorter than John Adams. But he may have been on the short side among the ruling classes. We know Washington and Jefferson were tall even for today's standards, and king George III was described as tall. I don't know how tall the contemporary Austrian emperor Francis II was, but his long and narrow face in portraits suggests he was likely above average height. It's possible that Napoleon's "short" stature was also exaggerated as an allusion to his humble origin.
Yes, I suspect that Napoleon being short was a slander of that era in much the same way that Marie Antoinette's "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche" was.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

seaborgium wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:52 pm
Brad: (cannot wager)
Hey Stefan, would it be too much work to ask you to post every instance you know of of someone scoring negative in either game of a two-game, total-point affair?

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

Robert K S wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:23 pm
seaborgium wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:52 pm
Brad: (cannot wager)
Hey Stefan, would it be too much work to ask you to post every instance you know of of someone scoring negative in either game of a two-game, total-point affair?
Any particular place (besides right in this thread)?

Edit: The first thing I know is that this is only the second time a player has been unable to play FJ in the second game, but the first time, Kevin Shen in the 2014 College Championship was at $0 (after a late, failed DD), not negative. Day 1 negatives will be harder because my notation works with Day 1 totals and not pre-FJ scores.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

Here's fine

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

I think Brad, Kevin, Roger Craig, Hans von Walter, Courtney Bennis, and Irene Grzywacz are the only players to play one FJ of a two-game final.

edit: Bennis, not Bettis
edit: Kevin, not Andrew
Last edited by seaborgium on Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

Roger Craig had -$800 after Battle of the Decades final game 1.
Hans von Walter had -$6,000 after 2010-B College Championship final game 1.
Courtney Bennis had -$600 after 2004 Teen Tournament final game 1.
Irene Grzywacz had -$200 after 1987 Senior Tournament final game 1.

The Archive knows how to compute the cumulative scores right for all these players (i.e., doesn't subtract the negative money).

Now to track down the bug causing the subtraction in Brad's GOAT game.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

I guess the thing is that the negative score has never happened on the second day before and that's why it's never been an issue before. One max(X, 0) function later and we're in business.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MinnesotaMyron »

Robert K S wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:19 am
I guess the thing is that the negative score has never happened on the second day before and that's why it's never been an issue before. One max(X, 0) function later and we're in business.
And 3 correction suggestions can now be accepted or rejected, depending on how you look at it.

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Re: GOAT Tournament Day 2 (1/8/20) Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by gnash »

Robert K S wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:19 am
I guess the thing is that the negative score has never happened on the second day before and that's why it's never been an issue before. One max(X, 0) function later and we're in business.
Kudos for fixing a bug promptly, but also, arguably, the bug had no practical significance in this case.

The situation where it would have a practical significance would be unusual, but realistic: A player with a large advantage from game 1 winning the match despite not being able to compete in game 2 FJ. And the difference between a zero and negative score could be decisive.

BTW, do we know for sure that the official rules treat the game 2 negatives the same way as game 1 negatives?

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