Thursday, January 9, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Re: Thursday, January 9, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:15 pm

I remember fingerprint evidence being used in the Sherlock Holmes story "The Adventure of the Norwood Builder" (1903). It's clearly presented as a relatively recent technique. The internet is also full of the claim that Doyle mentioned fingerprint evidence as early as 1890 in The Sign of the Four. But I cannot substantiate this claim. If anyone can provide me with a relevant quote from that book, I'd be grateful. All I can find is several references to a footprint with unusual characteristics and a passing reference to a handprint presumed to belong to the subject being pursued. Neither of these are used to provide a conclusive identification of the culprit.

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Re: Thursday, January 9, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by AFRET CMS » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:21 pm

They also figure prominently in long-running Canadian TV series, "Murdoch Mysteries."

From Wikipedia:

"Murdoch Mysteries is a Canadian television drama series that premiered on Citytv on January 20, 2008 and currently airs on CBC Television. The series is based on characters from the Detective Murdoch novels by Maureen Jennings and stars Yannick Bisson as the fictional William Murdoch, a police detective working in Toronto, Ontario in the late 19th century.
...
The series takes place in Toronto starting in 1895 and follows Detective William Murdoch (Yannick Bisson) of the Toronto Constabulary, who solves many of his cases using methods of detection that were unusual at the time. These methods include fingerprinting (referred to as "finger marks" in the series), blood testing, surveillance, and trace evidence."

I have heard of fans of both sometimes confabulating pieces of Sherlock Holmes and Murdoch, especially since Arthur Conan Doyle has appeared as a character in a couple of episodes of Murdoch. The show's conceit is that Murdoch and Doyle are fans of each other, with Doyle using some of Murdoch's cases for inspiration.
I'm not the defending Jeopardy! champion. But I have played one on TV.

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Re: Thursday, January 9, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by gnash » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:49 pm

I am not an expert myself, but my Greek teacher would have disagreed with the description of "tyrannos" as a king who usurped power illegitimately. He always insisted "tyrannos" was the most generic word for king or prince, as opposed to "basileus", which had certain specific meanings (the Persian Emperor, or a specific official in Athens).

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Re: Thursday, January 9, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:27 pm

gnash wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:49 pm
I am not an expert myself, but my Greek teacher would have disagreed with the description of "tyrannos" as a king who usurped power illegitimately. He always insisted "tyrannos" was the most generic word for king or prince, as opposed to "basileus", which had certain specific meanings (the Persian Emperor, or a specific official in Athens).
I think the clue is technically correct. The "basileus" is a hereditary king and therefore legally in charge. The "tyrranos" was not a hereditary king and therefore by definition, as the clue says, he "seized power illegally". Here's the entry in Liddell* and Scott’s Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon.**

τύραννος [ῠ], ὁ, an absolute sovereign, unlimited by law or constitution, Hdt., Aesch., etc.: not applied to old hereditary sovereignties (βασιλεῖαι) such as those of Hom. or of Sparta; for the term rather regards the irregular way in which the power was gained, than the way in which it was exercised, being applied to the mild Pisistratus, but not to the despotic kings of Persia. However, the word soon came to imply reproach, like our tyrant, Plat., etc.

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* That's Henry George Liddell, father of Alice Pleasance Liddell for whom Lewis Carroll wrote Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
** The intermediate version is shortened from the full version (known as Big Liddell), but is more detailed than the abridged version (Little Liddell). Hence, it is referred to as Middle Liddell.

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Re: Thursday, January 9, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by gnash » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:27 pm

opusthepenguin wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:27 pm
gnash wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:49 pm
I am not an expert myself, but my Greek teacher would have disagreed with the description of "tyrannos" as a king who usurped power illegitimately. He always insisted "tyrannos" was the most generic word for king or prince, as opposed to "basileus", which had certain specific meanings (the Persian Emperor, or a specific official in Athens).
I think the clue is technically correct. The "basileus" is a hereditary king and therefore legally in charge. The "tyrranos" was not a hereditary king and therefore by definition, as the clue says, he "seized power illegally". Here's the entry in Liddell* and Scott’s Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon.**

τύραννος [ῠ], ὁ, an absolute sovereign, unlimited by law or constitution, Hdt., Aesch., etc.: not applied to old hereditary sovereignties (βασιλεῖαι) such as those of Hom. or of Sparta; for the term rather regards the irregular way in which the power was gained, than the way in which it was exercised, being applied to the mild Pisistratus, but not to the despotic kings of Persia. However, the word soon came to imply reproach, like our tyrant, Plat., etc.

---------------
* That's Henry George Liddell, father of Alice Pleasance Liddell for whom Lewis Carroll wrote Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
** The intermediate version is shortened from the full version (known as Big Liddell), but is more detailed than the abridged version (Little Liddell). Hence, it is referred to as Middle Liddell.
But can Middle Liddell answer this riddle: How would that explain Οιδίπους Τύραννος? The title was clearly not meant to be a spoiler, and the standard translations (Oedipus Rex, Oedipus the King) also don't imply usurpation. Also, pretty sure Menelaus is referred to as "Τύραννος" in the Iliad (or calls himself that). My guess is that the word acquired that usurpation connotation at some point, but didn't yet have it at the time of Sophocles, let alone Homer.

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Re: Thursday, January 9, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:20 pm

gnash wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:27 pm
But can Middle Liddell answer this riddle: How would that explain Οιδίπους Τύραννος? The title was clearly not meant to be a spoiler, and the standard translations (Oedipus Rex, Oedipus the King) also don't imply usurpation. Also, pretty sure Menelaus is referred to as "Τύραννος" in the Iliad (or calls himself that). My guess is that the word acquired that usurpation connotation at some point, but didn't yet have it at the time of Sophocles, let alone Homer.
Well fiddle. I don't know what Liddell would say to that Sphinx-worthy riddle.

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