Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:40 am

Cock Robin/Sparrow was a NHOI for me in Fairy Tales. Poll request?

0/5 in American Women/Politics and 19th Century. "Bat Masterson" rings no bells for me.

Penitentiaries -> prisons -> Folsom Prison -> Johnny Cash? Let's go with that.

Lach Trash: Rumpelstiltskin, rubber, Limburger
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Re: the champion's wager

Post by Category 13 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:48 am

mjhunt wrote: Maybe she figured she had already won five games and was not worried about absolutely maximizing her chances of winning another?
Perhaps you meant absolutley maximizing her winnings ($) in the event she gets it correct and Steve is wrong?
In that case, I would argue that in both of her lock games she wagered zero, which demonstrates a low concern of padding her prize money.

For this game's wagering scenario; if MacKenzie wanted to maximize her payout without killing her chances of winning the game on an incorrect, I would call for a maximum wager of $8999. That would at least insure she wouldn't drop below Jennifer on a TS and more than likely beat Steve's MSBIW.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by BigDaddyMatty » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:57 am

Coryat: 42,200
50 R/1 W
DD: 3/3
FJ: :mrgreen:
LT: Ralph Nader, Stratego, Rumpelstiltskin, Bat Masterson, Limburger

When I saw this FJ! comin'
And the Think! music begin
I thought MacKenzie was done for
And Steve would get the win

But it wasn't something he know
We watched his J! hopes die
Now she's a superchampion
And holds her head with pride

MacKenzie continues to dodge bullets. Better to be both lucky and good than one or the other, I suppose.

I can't believe Old West + Masterson went TS. OTOH, it seemed quite appropriate that no one could guess the name of Rumpelstiltskin.
mas3cf wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:29 pm
DD3 was EYKIOYD. From my Archive search, this is the first time contestants have ever had to come up with Ponyboy. Props to MacKenzie for coming up with it!
"Stay gold, Ponyboy" has taken on a life of its own as a pop culture catchphrase/meme. I agree that it can't be teased out from the clue itself, but it's quite knowable without having read the book/watched the movie. If you haven't seen the movie, though, you should give it a watch. It was The Movie That Launched A Thousand '80s Hunks. C. Thomas Howell, Matt Dillon, Rob Lowe, Ralph Macchio, Patrick Swayze, Emilio Estevez, and Tom Cruise sharing a screen together is quite the sight to behold.
TenPoundHammer wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:40 am
Cock Robin/Sparrow was a NHOI for me in Fairy Tales. Poll request?
I've heard of it plenty of times, but I don't think I've ever actually heard it. I was not at all surprised when it went TS.
Sprinkles are for winners.

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Re: the champion's wager

Post by mjhunt » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:20 am

Category 13 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:48 am
mjhunt wrote: Maybe she figured she had already won five games and was not worried about absolutely maximizing her chances of winning another?
Perhaps you meant absolutley maximizing her winnings ($) in the event she gets it correct and Steve is wrong?
In that case, I would argue that in both of her lock games she wagered zero, which demonstrates a low concern of padding her prize money.

For this game's wagering scenario; if MacKenzie wanted to maximize her payout without killing her chances of winning the game on an incorrect, I would call for a maximum wager of $8999. That would at least insure she wouldn't drop below Jennifer on a TS and more than likely beat Steve's MSBIW.
You may be right. I'm only guessing at what she might have been thinking.

I'm not saying I would have bet it all either. I might well have wagered $8,999 as you suggested. I'm just rejecting the notion that players should absolutely always be excoriated for making bets that maximize potential winnings.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:29 am

I've been curious how frequently Jeopardy! covers the same topic or clues. We've all seen it - so, my question was - "Are there any completely novel clues in a Jeopardy! game?"

By novel, I mean this: Let's assume you have a perfect memory, and reasonable deductive skills. Then, if you've seen and memorized every J! clue before tonight, can you get every clue tonight? Figured I'd try it for this game.

I've done the 30 J! clues, and I'm 29 for 30 for finding a citation in the J! database. Here's a couple of examples of what I call a match:

#8166, aired 2020-02-24 AMERICAN WOMEN & POLITICS $1000: So far, Christine Todd Whitman, in office from 1994 to 2001, has been this state's only female governor (NJ)
#7434, aired 2016-12-29 THE STATE GOVERNED $800: Christine Todd Whitman (NJ)

It even works with fairly bland clues like sayings:

#8166, aired 2020-02-24 4-LETTER WORDS WITH 1 VOWEL $200: Proverbially, it "is more" (less)
#7727, aired 2018-03-27 A BLANK EXPRESSION $400: Associated with architect Mies van der Rohe: "Less is ____" (more)

Yes, it's not precisely the same thing since it's an inversion, but if you see the bottom clue, you should know the top one.

Even "sexting" got a hit, those naughty writers! The only one I can't find a good analogous clue for is this one, which is pretty easy:

#8166, aired 2020-02-24 AROUND THE WORLD $200: This chain of North American lakes covers an area larger than the United Kingdom

I mean, they cover the Great Lakes all the time, but I couldn't find a really good comparison. Maybe there's a clue about it being the largest chain of lakes in North America (which I assume it is), but I couldn't find it.

Lessons learned?

1) Study the Archive if you're going on J!
2) Watson cheated!

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by yclept » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:37 am

I knew coming here that people were going to hate MacKenzie’s wager and there is no doubt that it was far from optimal.

That said, if it is a category she loves and she wants to see if she can secure a huge win, she has every right to throw away the calculator and go for broke. She has shown to be strong in pop culture so whatever works for her. She adds several extra thousand to her bank account.

Regardless, she once again hits a big DD to get herself in position to win in the first place and is now amongst the world of super champs, giving us at least three female super champs competing in the next TOC.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by danspartan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:34 am

Re wagering

Great that she goes big on DD3 but holding back the 1,000 should have cost her today.

And yes it’s her money and she can bet it anyway she likes. We can objectively review her FJ wager as to optimal strategy.

IMO choosing 19% of ~31K (6k) vs 47% of 15+k (7.5k) is the obvious way to look at. Each win is worth about another $6k of expected value (1/3 of 18K) plus a little more if she wins more than 1 additional game.

The math isn’t even close. Winning>>>>all-in wager. Betting itball is just gambling.

I would guess she doesn’t understand the equations above. That’s ok. It’s also ok to point it out. I don’t understand why contestants don’t study this more but it is what it is.

She has a knack for going on buzzer runs in DJ and has good knowledge to take advantage. She wagers DDs way better than the standard 2k wager of so many contestants. It’s ok to point out it isn’t quite optimal.

As far as quitting thats a huge guffaw from me. Big difference between not having a complete grasp of wagering and quitting. She fights hard and has a real knack to bear down on DJ.

Plus a Monday is the beginning of new tape day after a break. Money is money. She does a lot of great work helping people in her community. She understands what she can do personally with her winnings and I’d not be surprised is she does something really awesome with it locally as well.

Anyone else have the thought that David Letterman was on stage?

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by John Boy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:22 am

Robert K S wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:14 pm
Was this Sg any relation to our Sg?

"Music star"... "penitentiary" really ought to be Pavlovian for the Man in Black for any worthy J! contestant.
My first thought was Sinatra, as he probably had a lot of, um, acquaintances in various state institutions.

Fortunately my brain moved to Cash after only a few seconds.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:24 am

seaborgium wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:37 pm

We don't know that guy.
I wonder if your answer would have been different if he'd won like two other Goodreaux ...

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:27 am

alietr wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:24 am
seaborgium wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:37 pm

We don't know that guy.
I wonder if your answer would have been different if he'd won like two other Goodreaux ...
You've never seen them in the same room together, have you? Steve steps into a cabinet of his own invention and out pops suave, charming Stefan.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by John Boy » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:41 am

talkingaway wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:55 pm
Foretopman wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:21 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:17 am
I wondered if any players would guess Elvis
Instaget FJ!. I hereby renounce the term "Pavlovian", and will eliminate it from my J! vocabulary. Pavlovian conditioning pairs a unconditioned stimulus (classically, food) with a neutral stimulus (classically, a bell) to gradually create a conditioned response (salivation) when the neutral stimulus is presented without the unconditioned stimulus. The point is that a bell in nature has nothing to do with salivation, but you work to get the conditioned response (salivation without food, but with the bell alone) by repeated pairings.

"70s musician" and "prison" is just a factoid that gets you to "Cash", and the pairing to me seems quite natural. But hey, that's just my soapbox from having taken 3 semesters of psych in college - I'll probably use it again, anyway.
Seems like you may be way overthinking this little fun term we use here. True, the original Pavlovian paradigm involves dog + food + experimenter + salivation and so forth. And granted, saying "Johnny Cash" when you hear "singer and prison" isn't really the kind of response that salivation in response to food is.

All we're saying around here is that if you hear certain terms/ideas/factoids connected to each other enough times, then it becomes automatic to give a certain response when given a stimulus (clue). They give a clue about a Spanish surrealist painter, you say "Dali." The connection is automatic, even if it isn't originally an unlearned physiological response such as salivation (and even if seeing such an easy clue makes you salivate). :D

To be game-ready to be on J! it would help to have a LOT of those in your brain, and they come in really handy in real life too.

If you want to use an alternate term (automatic, for instance) go for it. But I think you know what we mean.

(said the guy who has 3 degrees in psychology)

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:42 am

Robert K S wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:27 am
alietr wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:24 am
seaborgium wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:37 pm

We don't know that guy.
I wonder if your answer would have been different if he'd won like two other Goodreaux ...
You've never seen them in the same room together, have you? Steve steps into a cabinet of his own invention and out pops suave, charming Stefan.
It's disappointing because Steve had planned to shave off his beard for his second game had he won. :D

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by heppm01 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:52 am

danspartan wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:34 am
Anyone else have the thought that David Letterman was on stage?
I can't believe this didn't come up until the third page. (spoilerized due to hugeness)
Spoiler
Show
Image
Image

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:04 pm

Apologies to our Sg, but I chuckled when Mr. Goodreau was facing a cheese category.

Yes, she overwagered. But maybe she is really a big music fan and felt confident. Then she got a clue from out of her era, but still got it right. I wouldn’t have made that bet in that position.

I suspect Steve’s reasoning in picking Elvis was picking someone who was a big name singer in 1972. I got it right, but wasn’t 100% sure. I considered one of the Beatles, but there was no real reason to choose John over Paul or vice versa, so I stuck with Cash.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:13 pm

Bamaman wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:04 pm
Apologies to our Sg, but I chuckled when Mr. Goodreau was facing a cheese category.

Yes, she overwagered. But maybe she is really a big music fan and felt confident. Then she got a clue from out of her era, but still got it right. I wouldn’t have made that bet in that position.

I suspect Steve’s reasoning in picking Elvis was picking someone who was a big name singer in 1972. I got it right, but wasn’t 100% sure. I considered one of the Beatles, but there was no real reason to choose John over Paul or vice versa, so I stuck with Cash.
Paul over John? Only one of them was known for that kind of political activism. You should have stuck with John... ;)
Seriously, though, can you imagine a Senate committee in 1972 - or now - asking a controversial foreign national to comment on our prison system...?

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:24 pm

No, I couldn’t see that happening for the reasons you mentioned. It was just a thought that floated through my head.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by 1stlvlthinker » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:06 pm

I'm glad I don't know that much about music, because I instantly said "Cash" and never considered that Sinatra, Haggard, or Elvis might be a correct answer.
Won some of Ben Stein's money, some of Roger Lodge's, some of Chris Harrison's. None of Alex Trebek's.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by heppm01 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:34 pm

Had Cash before Alex finished with the question. Briefly considered Frank Zappa but decided I was thinking of his PMRC testimony and also that he was probably too obscure without a better TOM in the clue.

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:02 pm

heppm01 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:52 am
danspartan wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:34 am
Anyone else have the thought that David Letterman was on stage?
I can't believe this didn't come up until the third page. (spoilerized due to hugeness)
Spoiler
Show
Image
Image
Whereas my dad was so eager to compare his appearance to Harvey Weinstein's that he looked away from the screen and talked over Johnny announcing Steve's name. I was alerted in advance to the appearance of another Goodreau and because I missed my chance at being surprised by it, I wanted to vicariously experience the surprise through someone else. And then he ruined it! I was so ticked off.
Bamaman wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:04 pm
Apologies to our Sg, but I chuckled when Mr. Goodreau was facing a cheese category.
When he negged on the final clue (Limburger), putting the lead back in MacKenzie's reach, I thought, "What if a stinky cheese is his undoing!?" That wasn't the case, but like me, he lost from a lead over a player with $15,800 entering FJ who overwagered. (My dad is the only Goodreau to beat someone with that pre-FJ score.)

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Re: Monday, February 24, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by BigDaddyMatty » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:36 pm

Robert K S wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:27 am
alietr wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:24 am
seaborgium wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:37 pm

We don't know that guy.
I wonder if your answer would have been different if he'd won like two other Goodreaux ...
You've never seen them in the same room together, have you? Steve steps into a cabinet of his own invention and out pops suave, charming Stefan.
Did he do that?
Sprinkles are for winners.

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