Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

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Rackme32
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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by Rackme32 »

LucarioSnooperVixey wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:33 am
How the heck did none of the Master Minds get the moon? Were they even thinking? About weight? The tides?

An anemometer measuring the speed of breathing is new to me. I thought that was called a spirometer.
Dunno, must have been something about the way the q was worded, leading one to parse it as, "which has the larger gravitational pull?". It fooled me, too. And I think one of the contestants. Major facepalm, to be sure.

I agree about the anemometer/spirometer deal.

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by Volante »

Rackme32 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:31 am
LucarioSnooperVixey wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:33 am
How the heck did none of the Master Minds get the moon? Were they even thinking? About weight? The tides?

An anemometer measuring the speed of breathing is new to me. I thought that was called a spirometer.
Dunno, must have been something about the way the q was worded, leading one to parse it as, "which has the larger gravitational pull?". It fooled me, too. And I think one of the contestants. Major facepalm, to be sure.

I agree about the anemometer/spirometer deal.
Now I'm curious...what was the question in question?
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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by econgator »

Volante wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:44 am
Rackme32 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:31 am
LucarioSnooperVixey wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:33 am
How the heck did none of the Master Minds get the moon? Were they even thinking? About weight? The tides?

An anemometer measuring the speed of breathing is new to me. I thought that was called a spirometer.
Dunno, must have been something about the way the q was worded, leading one to parse it as, "which has the larger gravitational pull?". It fooled me, too. And I think one of the contestants. Major facepalm, to be sure.

I agree about the anemometer/spirometer deal.
Now I'm curious...what was the question in question?
Basically, it was which of the following will have the most effect on your weight if it is directly overhead: an airplane, the moon, or the sun.

Granted, neither the sun nor the moon can ever be directly overhead for most of us, but still, I wonder if that's right. It never gives an altitude for the airplane, so if I were standing at the end of the runway on St Martin and a 747 is 30 ft over my head as it lands, might that not have more effect?

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by Volante »

econgator wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:46 am
Volante wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:44 am
Rackme32 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:31 am
LucarioSnooperVixey wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:33 am
How the heck did none of the Master Minds get the moon? Were they even thinking? About weight? The tides?

An anemometer measuring the speed of breathing is new to me. I thought that was called a spirometer.
Dunno, must have been something about the way the q was worded, leading one to parse it as, "which has the larger gravitational pull?". It fooled me, too. And I think one of the contestants. Major facepalm, to be sure.

I agree about the anemometer/spirometer deal.
Now I'm curious...what was the question in question?
Basically, it was which of the following will have the most effect on your weight if it is directly overhead: an airplane, the moon, or the sun.

Granted, neither the sun nor the moon can ever be directly overhead for most of us, but still, I wonder if that's right. It never gives an altitude for the airplane, so if I were standing at the end of the runway on St Martin and a 747 is 30 ft over my head as it lands, might that not have more effect?
According to WolframAlpha, the gravitational force between a 175# object and...
a 688,000# (747-8 landing weight) object 30 feet away = 1.977×10^-5 N (newtons)
a 7.342×10^22 kg object (moon) 238,900 mi away = 0.002631 N (newtons)
a 1.989 × 10^30 kg object (sun) 1AU away = 0.4709 N (newtons)

(with multiple degrees of magnitude between each result, I don't think we need to be concerned if the distances are calculated from the center or not)

Which...means the sun should be the right answer? I checked the usual suspects for the transcript but still can't find the exact wording.
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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by alietr »

Airplane Sun Moon.PNG
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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by talkingaway »

Rackme32 wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:31 am
LucarioSnooperVixey wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:33 am
How the heck did none of the Master Minds get the moon? Were they even thinking? About weight? The tides?

An anemometer measuring the speed of breathing is new to me. I thought that was called a spirometer.
Dunno, must have been something about the way the q was worded, leading one to parse it as, "which has the larger gravitational pull?". It fooled me, too. And I think one of the contestants. Major facepalm, to be sure.

I agree about the anemometer/spirometer deal.
I was completely dumbfounded by that question's wording. I thought by "directly overhead", they meant at the same distance, which would basically boil down to "which one weighs the most", so I said sun, ignoring the fact that I'd be burned to a crisp.

It's actually a tough question as written. The sun's mass is about 10^7 (ten million) times the moon's mass, so it pulls that much harder. But the sun's distance is 387 times farther away than the moon. You have to square it to get how much more powerful the moon pulls us due to is closer distance, which would be about 10^5 times harder.

Thus, the sun should pull on the order of 10^7 / 10^5 = 100 times harder, which isn't what the Master Minds folks got, but is basically what Volante got in terms of order-of-magnitude. I think they messed up, if their right answer was "moon", which I think it was.

So, I got the right answer, but for the wrong reason.

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by Volante »

alietr wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:50 am
Airplane Sun Moon.PNG
That just raises further questions!

I'm wondering if they meant, "Which of these directly overhead would reduce your weight the most compared to being directly underneath?" which would be the moon.
Last edited by Volante on Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by econgator »

Volante wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:42 am
According to WolframAlpha, the gravitational force between a 175# object and...
a 688,000# (747-8 landing weight) object 30 feet away = 1.977×10^-5 N (newtons)
a 7.342×10^22 kg object (moon) 238,900 mi away = 0.002631 N (newtons)
a 1.989 × 10^30 kg object (sun) 1AU away = 0.4709 N (newtons)

(with multiple degrees of magnitude between each result, I don't think we need to be concerned if the distances are calculated from the center or not)

Which...means the sun should be the right answer? I checked the usual suspects for the transcript but still can't find the exact wording.
Thanks for that.

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by talkingaway »

Volante wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:26 pm
alietr wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:50 am
Airplane Sun Moon.PNG
That just raises further questions!

I'm wondering if they meant, "Which of these directly overhead would reduce your weight the most compared to being directly underneath?" which would be the moon.
But would it? If the sun's pulling you with x newtons of force upwards when it's above, then it's pulling you down x newtons when it's below, for a difference of 2x. Same for the moon, so it just depends on which x is bigger - and I think like you calculated before, it's bigger by a factor on the order of hundreds.

I'm temporarily assuming a geocentric view of the world, and perfectly circular orbits. And that all three bodies are fundamentally point masses. Maybe I'm missing something in the geometry of the situation?

Something that's bugged me about the show - do they ever force contestants to answer in the second round? If so, how do they choose who answers (and is punished because they'll probably get it wrong)? Random? I seem to recall one time Ken buzzing in on the last question, getting the question wrong, and going into last place because of it. That only makes sense if Ken got randomized - if anyone on MM gets game theory and wagering, it's Ken.

It seems possible that, either for strategic reasons or for lack of knowledge, you might often have a case when nobody buzzes in. I can't believe that with 100+ episodes aired, and with 10 possibilities for triple clams per episode, there hasn't been a case where everyone's been silent. Granted, half those cases are for the Master Minds, and Ken alone would probably buzz in for an inordinate number of them.

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by econgator »

talkingaway wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:14 pm
Something that's bugged me about the show - do they ever force contestants to answer in the second round? If so, how do they choose who answers (and is punished because they'll probably get it wrong)? Random? I seem to recall one time Ken buzzing in on the last question, getting the question wrong, and going into last place because of it. That only makes sense if Ken got randomized - if anyone on MM gets game theory and wagering, it's Ken.
I think that was asked on the LL board and the answer was they'll just edit it out if no contestant rings in.

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by mrbungle »

LucarioSnooperVixey wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:33 am
How the heck did none of the Master Minds get the moon? Were they even thinking? About weight? The tides?
yeah: i (as did others, apparently) interpreted the question as "which of these objects would exert the greatest gravitational pull on you if it were positioned a small distance above your head?"

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by Volante »

talkingaway wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:14 pm
Volante wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:26 pm
alietr wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:50 am
Airplane Sun Moon.PNG
That just raises further questions!

I'm wondering if they meant, "Which of these directly overhead would reduce your weight the most compared to being directly underneath?" which would be the moon.
But would it? If the sun's pulling you with x newtons of force upwards when it's above, then it's pulling you down x newtons when it's below, for a difference of 2x. Same for the moon, so it just depends on which x is bigger - and I think like you calculated before, it's bigger by a factor on the order of hundreds.

I'm temporarily assuming a geocentric view of the world, and perfectly circular orbits. And that all three bodies are fundamentally point masses. Maybe I'm missing something in the geometry of the situation?
Not the geometry, but that the formula for gravitational force squares the distance.

The airplane already has zero effect so nuts to the airplane. Meanwhile, while the sun does has a massive effect, it's so far away, adding 8,000^2 to the divisor is more negligible since you're already squaring 92,000,000 on top of that.

The moon, however, is at a distance of 238,900 miles and adding 8,000 to that is a significant change, making a force of = 0.002464 N (newtons) or a change of .000167 N

Just to confirm my hypothesis, doing a farther sun calculation I get .47078. I recalculated the closer to .47086 because WA rounds to four sig figs for final solution (.4709 - .4708 wouldn't cut it, that could be anywhere from .00001 to .00019, and .000167 is between those), giving a delta change of .00008 N.

So standing on the earth, the moon pulls you away from the earth more when it is directly overhead than pulls you toward the earth if it is directly opposite.
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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by talkingaway »

Volante wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:36 pm
talkingaway wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:14 pm
Volante wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:26 pm
alietr wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:50 am
Airplane Sun Moon.PNG
That just raises further questions!

I'm wondering if they meant, "Which of these directly overhead would reduce your weight the most compared to being directly underneath?" which would be the moon.
But would it? If the sun's pulling you with x newtons of force upwards when it's above, then it's pulling you down x newtons when it's below, for a difference of 2x. Same for the moon, so it just depends on which x is bigger - and I think like you calculated before, it's bigger by a factor on the order of hundreds.

I'm temporarily assuming a geocentric view of the world, and perfectly circular orbits. And that all three bodies are fundamentally point masses. Maybe I'm missing something in the geometry of the situation?
Not the geometry, but that the formula for gravitational force squares the distance.

The airplane already has zero effect so nuts to the airplane. Meanwhile, while the sun does has a massive effect, it's so far away, adding 8,000^2 to the divisor is more negligible since you're already squaring 92,000,000 on top of that.

The moon, however, is at a distance of 238,900 miles and adding 8,000 to that is a significant change, making a force of = 0.002464 N (newtons) or a change of .000167 N

Just to confirm my hypothesis, doing a farther sun calculation I get .47078. I recalculated the closer to .47086 because WA rounds to four sig figs for final solution (.4709 - .4708 wouldn't cut it, that could be anywhere from .00001 to .00019, and .000167 is between those), giving a delta change of .00008 N.

So standing on the earth, the moon pulls you away from the earth more when it is directly overhead than pulls you toward the earth if it is directly opposite.
A-ha, great work. I never really realized how close we were to the moon. Only about 30 Earth diameters, so that makes sense - adding 1 extra diameter certainly would make a difference. I guess it makes sense, considering we've actually BEEN to the moon, and the trip wasn't that long - 3 days, as opposed to 7 months to get to Mars.

So, in summary, it's a "just take a guess" question that Master Minds occasionally puts in. Yay.

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by alietr »

Earth and Moon as seen by the HiRISE camera on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter orbiting Mars (to give a sense of scale).

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by alietr »

Is there a way to figure out contestants' last names, other than LSV recognizing them?

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by MarkBarrett »

Stats through the 2/8/21 week:
Spoiler
Appearances
Ken: 45
Jonathan: 42
Muffy: 42
LaKedra: 4
Arianna: 3
Ryan: 2

Bonus Round Outright Wins
Ken: 20
Muffy: 14
Jonathan: 5
LaKedra: 3

Bonus Round Losses
Muffy: 1 (2/4/21 - Tony: 4-3)

Bonus Round Ties
Ken: 2 (Contestant Missed Tiebreaker & Contestant Correct on Tiebreaker)
Jonathan: 1 (Contestant Correct on Tiebreaker)

Master Mind Bonus Round Percentage Correct
Ken: .755 (22 times) (Played 102 out of possible 110 questions)
Muffy: .671 (15 times) (Played 70 out of possible 75 questions)
Jonathan: .593 (5 times) (Played 27 out of possible 30 questions)
LaKedra: .571 (3 times) (Played 14 out of possible 15 questions)


Bonus Round 5/5 by Master Mind
Ken: 4
Muffy: 1

Bonus Round 4/4 by Master Mind
Ken: 2
Muffy: 1

Bonus Round 3/3 by Master Mind
Ken: 1

Bonus Round Wins By Contestant
12/22/20 - Tyler (3-3 tiebreaker against Ken)
1/19/21 - Hunter (3-3 tiebreaker against Jonathan)
2/4/21 - Tony (4-3 against Muffy)

Master Mind Wins Against Other Master Minds
Ken: 22
Muffy: 15
Jonathan: 6
LaKedra: 3
Arianna: 0
Ryan: 0

Master Mind Eliminated After Second Round
Jonathan: 20
Muffy: 13
Ken: 10
Arianna: 1
Ryan: 2
LaKedra: 0

Master Mind Runner-Up Against Other Master Minds
Jonathan: 16
Muffy: 14
Ken: 13
Arianna: 2
LaKedra: 1

Average 3-Round Score Per Appearance
LaKedra: 3925
Ken: 3338
Muffy: 3093
Arianna: 2133
Jonathan: 1860
Ryan: 550

Highest Scores by Master Minds through 3 Rounds
Ken: 7200
Muffy: 7200
Jonathan: 7000
LaKedra: 4300
Arianna: 3700
Ryan: 600

Master Mind Wins from Left Position
23

Master MInd Wins from Center Position
16

Master Mind Wins from Right Position
7
Last edited by MarkBarrett on Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by LucarioSnooperVixey »

Unsurprisingly, the contestant who buzzed in picked a country that wasn't in Central America.

Situation did not get any better when Muffy put down Venezuela. Probably misread the question and thought Maracaibo.

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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by alietr »

Ken was amusing:


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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by Volante »

alietr wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:25 pm
Ken was amusing:
Spoiler
Oh if only he used a Dr Evil pinky...
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Re: Fun with GSN's "Master Minds"

Post by MarkBarrett »

Help, please. My recording messed up in the middle and I did not see round 3. Anyone have the score for Ken & Muffy? Thanks.

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