Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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mas3cf
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mas3cf »

If NY/Boston accents win the day here, then this should be acceptable:

Ray Charles famously sang a version of this state song.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

kerryoakie wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:14 pm :lol: I used to work at a Japanese company and OH BOY did my name cause issues. If I spelled it "Kelly," they would pronounce it as "Kerry." If I spelled it "Kerry" I would get something like "Keddy." I got used to the "Dear Kelly-san" emails pretty quickly as I'm sure I butchered many of my colleagues names when attempting to speak Japanese.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

Stanislaus Jacob wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:10 pm
kerryoakie wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:56 am FWIW, I'm a Kerry and I pronounce my name the same way I pronounce Carrie and carry.
You in fact prove the point more than anyone else here. To my ears your board name is an almost pun - good enough for a message board name, but not exact. But to your ears, which are obviously the ones that matter, your name is a perfect pun.
And native Japanese speakers have no idea it's even supposed to be a pun :)

Here's how I would summarize the whole Barry/Berry flap:
1. Betsy clearly knew which person the clue was referring to
2. She spelled his name in a manner which would be pronounced the same as his actual name by a majority of U.S. speakers.

End of story. Negging her is simply being overly pedantic especially based on the show's precedent.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

I came up with 3 names: Spector (he's not about to get feted nowadays), Gordy (nah, he can't still be alive, besides, I'd call him an entrepreneur or label owner over a producer), and QJ. Went with QJ. Rats.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

The official explanation's sidestepping the issue and ignoring the longstanding homophone rule makes me angry. If the old rule is gone, why can they not just tell us that? If they really don't believe that "Barry" and "Berry" are homophonous, why can't they just tell us that?
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

I think it comes down to our personal biases based on our accents. If you think Berry and Barry are homophones, you probably also assume the name Berry is a spelling variant of Barry. If you think they are pronounced differently then you see them as two distinct names. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong, but obviously the J! judges aren't willing to see the opposite viewpoint.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

Saying Barry and Berry are different names seems like it's trying to equate it to something like Manet vs Monet. The thing is those names have distinctly different vowel sounds, Monet with a long O and Manet with a short A. (At least I hope we all agree on that!) If either one didn't exist, you could probably get way with pronouncing either with a schwa sound but the existence of both means you need to be precise to make it clear which one you mean. Barry vs Berry just seems very much not the same thing.

The example was cited that they accepted Katherine for Katharine (Hepburn), and I feel it would be absurd to claim those are "different names", they are slight spelling variants of the same name. Same as if someone said "Who is John Voight?", to say Jon and John are different names seems ridiculous. They did by the way accept Voigt for Voight so apparently the silent H is always given leeway!
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

jeff6286 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:19 pm Saying Barry and Berry are different names seems like it's trying to equate it to something like Manet vs Monet. The thing is those names have distinctly different vowel sounds, Monet with a long O and Manet with a short A. (At least I hope we all agree on that!) If either one didn't exist, you could probably get way with pronouncing either with a schwa sound but the existence of both means you need to be precise to make it clear which one you mean. Barry vs Berry just seems very much not the same thing.

The example was cited that they accepted Katherine for Katharine (Hepburn), and I feel it would be absurd to claim those are "different names", they are slight spelling variants of the same name. Same as if someone said "Who is John Voight?", to say Jon and John are different names seems ridiculous. They did by the way accept Voigt for Voight so apparently the silent H is always given leeway!
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

Bamaman wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:32 pm
jeff6286 wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:19 pm Saying Barry and Berry are different names seems like it's trying to equate it to something like Manet vs Monet. The thing is those names have distinctly different vowel sounds, Monet with a long O and Manet with a short A. (At least I hope we all agree on that!) If either one didn't exist, you could probably get way with pronouncing either with a schwa sound but the existence of both means you need to be precise to make it clear which one you mean. Barry vs Berry just seems very much not the same thing.

The example was cited that they accepted Katherine for Katharine (Hepburn), and I feel it would be absurd to claim those are "different names", they are slight spelling variants of the same name. Same as if someone said "Who is John Voight?", to say Jon and John are different names seems ridiculous. They did by the way accept Voigt for Voight so apparently the silent H is always given leeway!
Jon Voight is an actor. John Voight is a dentist.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

I can kind of see saying that it's like writing "the tooth ferry" when they wanted fairy or "Mary Christmas" when they wanted merry. You feel as though those shouldn't be accepted because they exhibit a misunderstanding about the word being sought, regardless of whether the words are pronounced the same or differently. But I'd argue that the rules require them to accept those odd responses, perhaps with a brief explanation of the technicalities that are breaking in favor of the contestant. So Alex should have said, "He spelled his first name with an e rather than an a, but we don't penalize for misspelling."
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by John Boy »

Robert K S wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:55 pm
triviawayne wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:16 pm Barry like carry

Berry like strawberry

But everyone I have ever known of American origin has pronounced "strawberry" as rhyming with "straw-carry".
Uh, no. Sorry. Berry and Barry are just two distinct names and two distinct pronunciations. Not that it mattered in determining the winner of this game, but the neg seemed quite correct to me.

Now why couldn't she just follow the advice of countless former players and boardies and use last name only? Solve THAT dilemma in a heartbeat.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

John Boy wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:19 pm Uh, no. Sorry. Berry and Barry are just two distinct names and two distinct pronunciations.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

John Boy wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:19 pmNow why couldn't she just follow the advice of countless former players and boardies and use last name only? Solve THAT dilemma in a heartbeat.
As OntarioQuizzer pointed out on reddit, if TPTB can revoke the homophone rule so capriciously, they can revoke the last-name-only rule just as capriciously. "Oh, sorry, no, there is another music producer by the name of Emory Gordy Jr., you weren't specific enough..."
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer »

This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:17 am But does she read the "noosepaper?"
Not that I've noticed, but she does say "sundy" for both Sunday and sundae.
This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:17 amThe "onsweet tea" one is a bit interesting...
What's weird is that most of our customers seem to be about 50/50 on saying "hambugger" or "hamburg". Same thing with "cheesebugger" vs. "cheeseburg". One particular regular is insistent on her "cheeseburg [sic] with NO ONIONS!" every day. I've also heard a few say "hambugger" but still pronounce "cheeseburger" correctly.

I also hear a disturbing amount of people ask for "sour sauce" with their nuggets. Is it just common Midwesterners randomly drop entire words sentences?
This Is Kirk! wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:17 am One I've noticed some people in Michigan say I've always thought was strange was "ompen" for "open" with the first syllable like the "om" mantra word.
"Ompen" I've not heard, but I have heard "bolth" for "both" and "faults" for "false" a lot. Akso "ayg" for "egg", "egghorn" for "acorn"...

Ironically the first person I noticed who said "libary" was my elementary school libarian.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

Robert K S wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:17 pm
John Boy wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:19 pmNow why couldn't she just follow the advice of countless former players and boardies and use last name only? Solve THAT dilemma in a heartbeat.
As OntarioQuizzer pointed out on reddit, if TPTB can revoke the homophone rule so capriciously, they can revoke the last-name-only rule just as capriciously. "Oh, sorry, no, there is another music producer by the name of Emory Gordy Jr., you weren't specific enough..."
I feel it's more not knowing which rule takes precedence: incorrect information or homophone.
If they're classifying 'Barry' as a name unto itself, then pronunciation is irrelevant. It's just as if 'Hubert' or 'Winston' was written.

That said, I would more have expected this more if there was a 'Barry Gordy' (and let's just say of any notoriety for simplicity's sake), somewhat like if FJ asked for the holder of longest hitless at-bat streak in baseball and you wrote "Khris Davis", well, that's wrong, even though it's a homophone of "Chris Davis."

I briefly thought about how they'd handle "Berri" or "Barri", but then my hangover kicked in and I decided I didn't want to make it worse.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by bbird »

Let's throw another wrinkle into this discussion. I would've written Who is Gordi? In fact, when Alex started to say something about dinging Betsy for the name spelling, I thought it was going to be about the last name!
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeffwolfe »

Robert K S wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:51 pm The official explanation's sidestepping the issue and ignoring the longstanding homophone rule makes me angry. If the old rule is gone, why can they not just tell us that? If they really don't believe that "Barry" and "Berry" are homophonous, why can't they just tell us that?
I agree.

Without context, just by looking at the name you can't tell whether it's a variant spelling or a different name, if there's a possibility it could be pronounced the same. If you live in an area where the vowel merger is well established, you might well today name a child Berry as a variant spelling of Barry. You've heard of the Brady Bunch actor but not the Motown founder. To you they're the same.

Berry Gordy was born in Michigan, where the vowel merger is well-established. If you knew that fact, you might draw a conclusion. But that's not the whole story. Berry Gordy is actually Berry Gordy III (even though he's usually called Berry Gordy Jr). A little internet research suggests his grandfather, Berry Gordy I was born in Georgia in 1854. To truly discern original intent (was it a different name or just a variant) you have to go back to antebellum Georgia. That way lies madness.

No, the only sane thing to do is to look at modern usage. And that's what people are doing in this thread. Without exception, the people in this thread who say they are different names are basing their assertion on the fact that the names sound different (to them). Aside from historical research, what other way is there to determine if a name is a variant of another name or a different name altogether. You might think it's obvious, but why is it obvious.

So TPTB assert that Berry and Barry are different without really addressing why. That strikes me as being arbitrary and unfair. Where I grew up and have lived my whole life, those names are pronounced exactly the same and would be considered basically the same. So it is with a majority of Americans, if the data cited above is accurate. Am I to be penalized for where I grew up?
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer »

Robert K S wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:17 pmEmory Gordy Jr.
Why am I actually surprised that this namedrop came from someone other than me?
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

It would be cool if a member of the Gordy family would weigh in on on social media on their understanding of the name, if the controversy has even reached them. To me, it stretches credibility to assume that it comes from a separate derivation, rather than a spelling variation.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Linear Gnome »

seaborgium wrote: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:44 am See, to me, the vowel of "pear" and "air" is the same as the vowel of "bet" or "pen," just with an R finishing it. Are there any syllables with the vowel of "air" in your pronunciation that don't end with R?
How about "ham" or "yam"?
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