Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

This is where all of the games are discussed.

Moderators: alietr, trainman, econgator, dhkendall

User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 10319
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

talkingaway wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:20 pm Well, a stupid answer, but surprisingly thematically close: I said Jack Sparrow, thinking for sure Pirates of the Caribbean was based on some kind of literature.
Nope. It's based on a ride at Disneyland. Not kidding.
davey
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 6030
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:55 pm

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

jeff6286 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:06 pm No place in the Archive for what I would say is a bit of a flub by Alex. When revealing Michael's FJ response he said "Frankenstein, the monster". Frankenstein is not the monster! In a Halloween merchandising clue you might get away with that but not in a literature clue!
But ihe Monster first seeks revenge in the novel, perhaps that was what Alex was imprecisely referring to. Especially if he forgot (like I did) that Victor does the same and goes after the Monster later... :oops:
mas3cf wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:06 pm
Final was a forehead-slapper. I locked myself into Dickens early and was too focussed on the word "supernatural". Had to swat away Marley's ghost as being pre-1851, but then was left with nothing. Need to get back on the wagon soon....
Also, Marley seeks Scrooge's redemption, not revenge...I knew Frankenstein('s Monster) was too early and Dracula too late, but I ended up with the latter anyway. I believe this is the 2d time this season that I saw 19th C. in an FJ clue and never considered an American work...A weird blind spot. Still might not have gotten it, but the date and grandiose language as well as "revenge" should have led to Ahab...
Last edited by davey on Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
mjhunt
Valued Contributor
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:45 am

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mjhunt »

polaris wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:27 pm I didn't care for TJ and I am somewhat glad he is gone (it would really have been a shame if he went on a run and the last great champion of the Trebek era had a blue mohawk) but I can't help but feel bad... that DD was one of the hardest clues I have ever seen on this show. I mean, it makes sense, and I probably could have gotten there if I had three minutes to think it out; but I've read a lot about astronomy in my life and never heard of that.

More importantly, it is nice that the Trebek era is coming to a close with this UNILATERAL and DEFINITIVE example of why wagering is a key part of the game, and not an afterthought, because we witnessed an absolute disaster in the wagering department today. Anyone who says that's a nothing part of the game and people overthink it, IS DEAD WRONG AS APPARENT RIGHT NOW.

If any of the three had made a proper wager, they would have won the game.

T. J. got cute and went for the multiple of $1,000, thus LITERALLY RISKING MORE MONEY THAN NECESSARY. Had he wagered only the $11,201 he should have, he WOULD HAVE WON THE GAME. No longer can people say "iT'S ClOSe eNoUgH anD sOmE cOntEsTaNts cAn'T MaTh" because it's NOT close enough!

Michael.... I don't even know what was in his brain. He doesn't even have the excuse of "I can't do math, so I rounded up to the nearest $1,000" like TJ can say... because I'm pretty sure $10,000 was LITERALLY picked out of a hat. Like, why not $11,000? Why not everything? Why not $9,000. OR, MORE TO THE POINT, why not $3,000 which not only falls within the acceptable wager values, also has the benefit of being "A mUlTiPlE oF a ThOusANd dOlLaRs".

Leslie... Well, it was a tough spot to be in and the game SHOULD HAVE been literally unwinnable for her, so it really is fitting that she won. I can't really criticize the wager because imo there is no strictly rational option here. Good for her for winning I guess.
I see TJ’s wager as easily understandable and only slightly suboptimal. Yes it did cost him in this particular case, but the odds of it costing him were extremely small. This game was a true perfect storm.
First, triple stumpers are probably 30-35%, right?
And scores like today’s, I would say the chances are least 50% that one of the two trailing players would stay above $2,800, bringing us down to 15% or less.
And, then I may be wrong, but it seems from games I have seen and ones I have read in the archive is that by far the most common non-strategic overwagers from second or third are all but $1/$2/$100 or the nearest even thousand below. Together, they make up a large majority.
So, really, TJ could have bet $13,000 and still beaten both overwagering second and third place players the vast majority of the time.
Yes, TJ did make a suboptimal move, but I just want to point out that he was incredibly unlucky that his round-up cost him.
So, the reason people say "iT'S ClOSe eNoUgH anD sOmE cOntEsTaNts cAn'T MaTh" is because 99% of the time or more, it is.
I think it was second place who really threw the game away.
talkingaway
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 970
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:59 am

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

opusthepenguin wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:59 pm
talkingaway wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:20 pm Well, a stupid answer, but surprisingly thematically close: I said Jack Sparrow, thinking for sure Pirates of the Caribbean was based on some kind of literature.
Nope. It's based on a ride at Disneyland. Not kidding.
I never was into pirate/adventuring tales, so stuff like Pirates of the Caribbean and Treasure Island create a blind spot for me. But I did know the movie was based on a Disney ride...I've been on it several times. But perhaps the ride was based on a book:

Tarzan's Treehouse
Winnie the Pooh
Mark Twain Riverboat / Tom Sawyer Island
Mr. Toad's Wild Ride
Pinnochio
Peter Pan's Flight
Alice in Wonderland

Hrm. That sounds like good potential for a category when the world goes back to normal: LITERARY DISNEYLAND. Get Jimmy, Sarah, or whoever is added to the Clue Crew on a few of the rides for some corporate synergy.
User avatar
floridagator
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 2192
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:39 am

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by floridagator »

Anyone know the last time there's been a champ named Leslie or Lesley?
I'd rather cuddle then have sex. If you're into grammar, you'll understand.
User avatar
MarkBarrett
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 16471
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:37 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MarkBarrett »

floridagator wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:29 am Anyone know the last time there's been a champ named Leslie or Lesley?
http://www.j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=12080

is the most recent I found
User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 10319
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

talkingaway wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:10 am I never was into pirate/adventuring tales, so stuff like Pirates of the Caribbean and Treasure Island create a blind spot for me. But I did know the movie was based on a Disney ride...I've been on it several times. But perhaps the ride was based on a book:

Tarzan's Treehouse
Winnie the Pooh
Mark Twain Riverboat / Tom Sawyer Island
Mr. Toad's Wild Ride
Pinnochio
Peter Pan's Flight
Alice in Wonderland

Hrm. That sounds like good potential for a category when the world goes back to normal: LITERARY DISNEYLAND. Get Jimmy, Sarah, or whoever is added to the Clue Crew on a few of the rides for some corporate synergy.
They should do it now while the park is closed.
seaborgium
Undefeated in Reruns
Posts: 8941
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

mjhunt wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:51 am I see TJ’s wager as easily understandable and only slightly suboptimal. Yes it did cost him in this particular case, but the odds of it costing him were extremely small. This game was a true perfect storm.
What's wild is that both T.J.'s games were ones he "should" lose if he got FJ wrong, and yet in both games an opponent or opponents made wagers that gave it back to him, and yet in both games his rounding up gave it back again to his opponents.

Game 1: T.J. at $16,200 is defending against Ryan $8,800. Covering by $1 and missing FJ would take him down to $14,799. Ryan misses FJ, but Denise gets it right. She had $7,600, enough that she can win in a sole get, but she bets $7,000 and brings herself to $14,600, still under what T.J. falls to with a $1 cover and a miss. But he rounds up and wagers $2,000, letting Denise back in and only being saved by also getting FJ right.

Game 2: Leslie leaves herself $99 below where a "cover by $1" T.J. would fall on an incorrect FJ response, Michael $199 below. And T.J.'s round-up sinks him below them both.

Five out of six FJ wagers were just slightly wrong in the last two games (Michael's was wronger insofar as he let Leslie back into the game, but it was just $199 too much in relation to where T.J. should have ended up). (And at a glance the sixth one, Ryan's, could look like he was covering Denise's potential $15,200 by $1,001, but he must have been attempting to catch up to T.J.'s $16,200.)
da Doctah
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by da Doctah »

I'll bet if TJ had said "jovian" rather than just "jove" it would have sent the staff scurrying to the encyclopedias, because at some time somebody *must* have referred to the combined mass of the four gas giants as "Jovian mass".
User avatar
Newhausen
Loyal Jeopardista
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu May 15, 2014 8:02 pm

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Newhausen »

I think I had an over-dramatic movie posted in my head and went from Count of Monte Cristo to The Man in the Iron Mask. At least Google tells me I'm only off by one year on that one.
mjhunt wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:51 am And scores like today’s, I would say the chances are least 50% that one of the two trailing players would stay above $2,800, bringing us down to 15% or less.
Way lower than that. In a standard Jeopardy! situation, if a player is supposed to stay above $2,800, there's about an 80% chance* that they'll wager some amount of money between "all of it" and "all of it except for $10".

I suppose for the purposes of this calculation, those two wagers work out the same for our leader.

Amusingly, if a contestant is supposed to bet all of it, it's extremely likely* that they won't for Lord knows what reason.

*not scientifically proven, but it sure feels like it
Woof wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:49 pm Ouch! What a mean FJ, made worse by a typical overwager from 2nd. I got hung up on supernatural and, despite my near certainty that 1851 was too late, went with Frankenstein’s monster.
The overwager from 2nd wasn't nearly as egregious as either of the other two overwagers. At least he had something to gain by his overwager - on a solo get, he gets, what, an extra $7,500 or so over the "proper" wager of staying above Leslie's doubled score? The other two are throwing away win percentage for just a couple hundred bucks.
User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 10319
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

da Doctah wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:43 am I'll bet if TJ had said "jovian" rather than just "jove" it would have sent the staff scurrying to the encyclopedias, because at some time somebody *must* have referred to the combined mass of the four gas giants as "Jovian mass".
It looked to me as though there was an edit between his response and Alex's neg. I'm guessing the staff did get to scurrying to make sure his guess was not an acceptable alternative.
User avatar
This Is Kirk!
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 6562
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:35 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

Good timing having the Resolute Desk come up in a clue. I admit I chuckled a bit at that one.
mas3cf
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 1406
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:15 am

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mas3cf »

opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:31 am
da Doctah wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:43 am I'll bet if TJ had said "jovian" rather than just "jove" it would have sent the staff scurrying to the encyclopedias, because at some time somebody *must* have referred to the combined mass of the four gas giants as "Jovian mass".
It looked to me as though there was an edit between his response and Alex's neg. I'm guessing the staff did get to scurrying to make sure his guess was not an acceptable alternative.
In any event, he said "Joves" which would imply that MJ stands for Mass of Joves, which is not a thing.
polaris
Contributor
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:09 pm

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by polaris »

talkingaway wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:50 pm
polaris wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:27 pm I didn't care for TJ and I am somewhat glad he is gone (it would really have been a shame if he went on a run and the last great champion of the Trebek era had a blue mohawk) but I can't help but feel bad... that DD was one of the hardest clues I have ever seen on this show. I mean, it makes sense, and I probably could have gotten there if I had three minutes to think it out; but I've read a lot about astronomy in my life and never heard of that.
What J-word would be appropriate in comparing the mass of "extrasolar planets"? Pretty easy, IMO. Especially if you know astronomers, they like to compare one thing to another - for example, 1 AU (astronomical unit) is approximately the distance from the Earth to the Sun. The "heft" word was a subtle psychological push toward the heftiest planet, which is...? *glares at TPH*

I'll admit, I've never seen M-sub-j written anywhere in my life, either. It's one of those "puzzle" clues...much like the easier DD puzzle clue about an alliterative game show that featured the Hatfields vs the McCoys.

I thought that DD was way easier than "service above self"/club that moves clue.

I have to say, I wasn't super-impressed with our current champ's performance, but who knows. Maybe she'll surprise us if she gets better categories, and a costume change to clear her head.
Well, it makes sense now... maybe just a brain part on my part, because I have literally written "m_Jupiter" multiple times in my life (and literally in the context of comparing the mass of Jupiter to stuff), but the abbreviation just wasn't coming to me. I'd like to think any clue in certain categories that I miss is "unbelievably hard" but I guess the problem here is me, not the clue lol.
User avatar
This Is Kirk!
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 6562
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:35 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

Seems like the "M sub J" DD could be a good candidate for the weekly poll (paging Mr. Barrett!). It clicked for me immediately that the size of a known planet would be used as the benchmark and Jupiter is the only planet I know of that starts with J, but I can certainly see how if it didn't click it could be a very cryptic clue.
talkingaway
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 970
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:59 am

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

mas3cf wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:07 am
opusthepenguin wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:31 am
da Doctah wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:43 am I'll bet if TJ had said "jovian" rather than just "jove" it would have sent the staff scurrying to the encyclopedias, because at some time somebody *must* have referred to the combined mass of the four gas giants as "Jovian mass".
It looked to me as though there was an edit between his response and Alex's neg. I'm guessing the staff did get to scurrying to make sure his guess was not an acceptable alternative.
In any event, he said "Joves" which would imply that MJ stands for Mass of Joves, which is not a thing.
I don't think that was the problem - if he'd said "Jupiters", I think it would have been accepted. It would also sound like the possessive "Jove's", as in "Jove's mass". Admittedly, it wouldn't quite make sense in context of the clue, as it wasn't asking for a possessive, but they tend to be lenient on the forms of words unless it's a movie/book title, or they specifically eliminate one form (ie number of letters or asking for a specific part of speech).

I think I figured out the problem TJ had with the clue - two clues prior was a clue that specifically referred to ancient Rome, and Jove is the Roman god that gave Jupiter its name. I'm sure some poet somewhere at sometime has referred to Jupiter the planet as "Jove", and I'm sure if you pointed to the sky to a learned astronomer and said "There's Jove", he'd know what you're talking about. But I don't think it's really a thing to call Jupiter "Jove".
Bob78164
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:52 pm

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bob78164 »

seaborgium wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:42 pm
Bob78164 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:13 pmThis game is a win for the Strong Form of Shore's Conjecture. The second-place player bet "big." --Bob
Given that the standard cover wager would have left T.J. with a $2,799 win, isn't this game a draw?


After Leslie's and Michael's wagers were revealed, I realized they'd both handed the TS back to T.J. Then I remembered T.J.'s wager yesterday. Then Alex told him he was wrong, and I got a sinking feeling that was borne out.
You're right. I hadn't realized he'd bet more than the standard shut-out bet. I'll edit. Thanks for the catch. --Bob
User avatar
AFRET CMS
JBOARDIE OF THE MONTH!
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:48 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by AFRET CMS »

jeff6286 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:09 pm
NoName84 wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:37 pm I also went with The Count of Monte Cristo.
"Count" me as one more. Revenge is a very strong pointer at the Dumas book and it's only off by a few years. I was concerned over the word "supernatural" but couldn't come up with a better option in 30 seconds. I might recommend calling this American Literature to head off some of the incorrect paths, as there is very little to go on in the clue.
"American" might have helped me -- I keyed in on "supernatural" and went with the right rank, wrong person. Captain Nemo designed the Nautilus to wreak revenge for the injustices of mankind and it was thought to be a sea monster. But the book was 20 years too late. Darn that Verne for writing so slowly.
I'm not the defending Jeopardy! champion. But I have played one on TV.
User avatar
AFRET CMS
JBOARDIE OF THE MONTH!
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:48 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by AFRET CMS »

Science Books for $1000 --
Who better to write "Thermodynamics" than this Italian-American physicist who helped create the first nuclear chain reaction
Wonder if the writers were disappointed that Alex didn't mention that the show's air date of December 2 was the anniversary of Fermi's pile at the U. of Chicago going critical. The timing of the clue and air date could have been coincidental, but it's pretty improbable -- I'm thinking that it was deliberate.
I'm not the defending Jeopardy! champion. But I have played one on TV.
User avatar
Robert K S
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 5249
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:26 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

opusthepenguin wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:59 pm
talkingaway wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:20 pm Well, a stupid answer, but surprisingly thematically close: I said Jack Sparrow, thinking for sure Pirates of the Caribbean was based on some kind of literature.
Nope. It's based on a ride at Disneyland. Not kidding.
And maybe the work of any number of other writers who have claimed Disney took their ideas and have tried to sue for it... All unsuccessfully, to my knowledge.
Post Reply