Thursday, January 15, 2009 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

[Bamaman]

I got Wilder from a complete guess.

[Jeff-thecdboy]

I've always been on the "first response should count" side, but there is clear precedence (now -- whether or not that had been established in '09, I'm not sure) that so long as you correct yourself before being ruled wrong, you can change your response.

Meagan was not the first to save herself by saying a second thing when the first was wrong—Donna Vogel did it twice during her run in 2008. The first one was a DD (FINANCE $2,000) where she seemed to realize the moment her first response was out of her mouth that there was a better choice, and immediately switched. (Arguably this didn't change the game's outcome: only third place got FJ right but had too little to win, and the $10,000 swing for Donna made the difference between a crush lead and a close second with third locked out, and she had made the appropriate bet from the latter scenario in the prior game.) In the second occurrence, she gave a close-but-no-cigar response to a $2,000 clue (in THE MIDDLE EAST), and when Alex breathed in a hesitating, "I hate to have to do this" fashion, she corrected herself, and Alex presumably was happy not to have to rule her wrong. (This one also preserved a pre-FJ lead for her, but she and second place both got FJ right.)

Maybe Meagan's the first to change her answer and get it accepted after Alex asked her to repeat herself (there are earlier examples of other people doing the same, only for Alex to say, "No, that's not what you said before, which was wrong").

Here are a few other examples I can think of:

HARD "WORK" $1,000 - http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=535

PRIME (MINISTER) RHYME $400 - http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=962

AMERICANA $400 - http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=1676

[OrangeSAM]

I'm not even following the breadcrumbs on this one. He was a director.

Same with Spike Lee and ...

[cthulhu]

I've always been on the "first response should count" side, but there is clear precedence (now -- whether or not that had been established in '09, I'm not sure) that so long as you correct yourself before being ruled wrong, you can change your response.

No argument there; my issue is that she clearly got it wrong, so why did she get an undeserved (IMHO) second chance? And once she did, and it affected the outcome of the game, then it would have been fair to bring Greg back.

Oh well, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” - Emerson

[opusthepenguin]

I'm not even following the breadcrumbs on this one. He was a director.

That was my big worry. I didn't think Wilder would choose to identify himself as a writer in his engraved last words. He also didn't strike me as the self-deprecating type. But the clue pointed so strongly to Some Like It Hot that I figured it had to be him. He's quoting what is probably his most famous line that, if I recall, he stuck in as a placeholder. He figured he'd come up with something better for the final cut. But test audiences responded so strongly to the line that it stayed in. So self-deprecation it is.

[Volante]

I'm not even following the breadcrumbs on this one. He was a director.

That was my big worry. I didn't think Wilder would choose to identify himself as a writer in his engraved last words. He also didn't strike me as the self-deprecating type. But the clue pointed so strongly to Some Like It Hot that I figured it had to be him. He's quoting what is probably his most famous line that, if I recall, he stuck in as a placeholder. He figured he'd come up with something better for the final cut. But test audiences responded so strongly to the line that it stayed in. So self-deprecation it is.

I started off right with 'B...' but the rest came out, 'lake Edwards'. Pretty terrible misspelling if I do say so myself.

[seaborgium]

Here are a few other examples I can think of:

HARD "WORK" $1,000 - http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=535

PRIME (MINISTER) RHYME $400 - http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=962

AMERICANA $400 - http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=1676

Well, that made short work of my idea that Meagan was the first to say something else when Alex requested repetition.

No argument there; my issue is that she clearly got it wrong, so why did she get an undeserved (IMHO) second chance? And once she did, and it affected the outcome of the game, then it would have been fair to bring Greg back.

Oh well, “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.” - Emerson

She got a second chance because Alex couldn't immediately tell whether she said the wrong thing, and/or possibly even hoped she hadn't.

[jeff6286]

Regardless of how many times it's happened, it's still a bad rule/bad ruling. If Alex didn't quite hear it and needed a repeat, the judges could still listen back during the break (or stop tape and figure it out on the spot) and determine what was said. If the first thing said is clearly incorrect, then retroactively there is no need for Alex to ask for a repeat and the ruling should be overturned. It's one thing if a person stumbles over words or maybe inverts a syllable or swallows a key sound but when you clearly voice something that is an actual word and in particular with silicon/silicone, something that is obviously a close but not quite correct answer, it's downright unfair to the other players to give this player a second try.

See also the game that should have been Brad Rutter's first loss to a human: http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=4442 Causes & Effects $1200

[jeff6286]

Are there counterexamples to this? Where someone said the right thing but maybe Alex didn't quite hear it and asked for a repeat and they changed to something incorrect?

[opusthepenguin]

I don't care one way or the other as long as the rulings are consistent. They need to write down what the rule is and stick to it. If "Say it again" means "I'm going to give you a chance clarify and maybe even change your response," fine. If it means, "Enunciate the exact answer you just gave without changing it," fine. The former might be an easier rule to enforce since the latter relies a little bit on the honor system. I guess if we go with the latter (the no-change-allowed rule), I'd want it specified that it is in no way cheating to change your answer. It's up to the judges to decide if your first response can plausibly be interpreted as the correct response as later enunciated. If the new response is clearly different, they're going to catch you and embarrass you and take the points away. But it wasn't cheating to try. If you think your original response sounds close to the correct response, enunciate the correct response when prompted even if you privately know you were trying to say something else.

[opusthepenguin]

Are there counterexamples to this? Where someone said the right thing but maybe Alex didn't quite hear it and asked for a repeat and they changed to something incorrect?

Seems like there was one in the past few years where the contestant gave the correct response (to my ears) and Alex asked "Did you say [correct response with maybe a letter added]" and the contestant says, "I thought I did. Yes" and Alex says, "Well that's wrong!"

[econgator]

Regardless of how many times it's happened, it's still a bad rule/bad ruling. If Alex didn't quite hear it and needed a repeat, the judges could still listen back during the break (or stop tape and figure it out on the spot) and determine what was said. If the first thing said is clearly incorrect, then retroactively there is no need for Alex to ask for a repeat and the ruling should be overturned. It's one thing if a person stumbles over words or maybe inverts a syllable or swallows a key sound but when you clearly voice something that is an actual word and in particular with silicon/silicone, something that is obviously a close but not quite correct answer, it's downright unfair to the other players to give this player a second try.

Totally agree. I've never understood why they allow it to continue when it is so easily corrected.

[Robert K S]

I don't care one way or the other as long as the rulings are consistent. They need to write down what the rule is and stick to it.

I don't know if it's a written rule of the game, but it's certainly a rule told to the contestants in the green room briefing: if Alex asks you to repeat your response, you repeat it exactly as you said it the first time. No changing your answer, no correcting yourself.

Admittedly, this unwritten "rule" may be just a directive of convenience to avoid controversy given that the actual rule may be "you are permitted to correct yourself unless and until ruled wrong".

[seaborgium]

Are there counterexamples to this? Where someone said the right thing but maybe Alex didn't quite hear it and asked for a repeat and they changed to something incorrect?

WRITERS' MIDDLE NAMES $2,000.

[opusthepenguin]

I don't care one way or the other as long as the rulings are consistent. They need to write down what the rule is and stick to it.

I don't know if it's a written rule of the game, but it's certainly a rule told to the contestants in the green room briefing: if Alex asks you to repeat your response, you repeat it exactly as you said it the first time. No changing your answer, no correcting yourself.

So if you mumbled it the first time, mumble it on repeat in exactly the same way?

[Robert K S]

So if you mumbled it the first time, mumble it on repeat in exactly the same way?

Ours not to reason why, ours but to do or die. Watchcry!

[MinnesotaMyron]

For an example of a player saying it wrong, and then admitting it and not correcting it when Alex asks for clarification, see this game:

http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=553

WOMEN IN LABOR for $400, the first clue of the DJ round.

[Mathew5000]

Are there counterexamples to this? Where someone said the right thing but maybe Alex didn't quite hear it and asked for a repeat and they changed to something incorrect?

Seems like there was one in the past few years where the contestant gave the correct response (to my ears) and Alex asked "Did you say [correct response with maybe a letter added]" and the contestant says, "I thought I did. Yes" and Alex says, "Well that's wrong!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5JISPa8fQw

viewtopic.php?p=253729#p253729

July 27, 2017: Did Ryan Kious say Burnside or Burnsides

[opusthepenguin]

Are there counterexamples to this? Where someone said the right thing but maybe Alex didn't quite hear it and asked for a repeat and they changed to something incorrect?

Seems like there was one in the past few years where the contestant gave the correct response (to my ears) and Alex asked "Did you say [correct response with maybe a letter added]" and the contestant says, "I thought I did. Yes" and Alex says, "Well that's wrong!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5JISPa8fQw

That's the one! Thanks.

[Robert K S]

That's the one! Thanks.

I hope you chewed out that YouTube user for duplicating your video excerpt work