Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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BrigadierSolo13
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by BrigadierSolo13 »

floridagator wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:03 pm
People hate this kind of final because they're typical Jeopardy fans/contestants who aren't capable of anything beyond basic recall, the lowest level on Bloom's taxonomy. They want to be asked something simple that they think no one else knows, like what's the capital of American Samoa. Today's FJ clue requires synthesizing two pieces of knowledge. It can be done by someone who is capable of applying knowledge and not merely being stone silent because they weren't asked a simple recall question. This is also typical of college quiz bowl players.
Putting this in spoilers because it recalls yesterdays FJ
Spoiler
No one has complained yet about Thursday's final, even though all that was given was a year and the fact that the book has "so many holes in the pages". When given such obtuse details, it should be presumed that the correct response is the obvious one, which is one of the most popular children's book of all time. Therefore it fits the bill of a quality FJ clue, which is one that can be solved by deduction without knowing exactly what year a book was published, though knowing it seals the deal.

Today's clue gave no year and no name to QE2's last child. As user jeff6286 stated in his post, if you have neither seen some biography on the Queen Mum nor know exactly what year Prince Edward was born, the best of guesses is to extrapolate around which time Elizabeth had her last child and choose a President who may have had too short of term to have met her. To interject my own opinion on the matter, quality guesses should not be punished so harshly, maybe a mid-level clue on the board. I only need to prove my point by stating two-thirds of today's episode chose JFK, including a 3-day champion, AS WELL AS Ken admitting he didn't know either.
Last edited by BrigadierSolo13 on Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Agrajag »

38 R / 4 W - Coryat: $23,400
DD: :D :( :D (Guessed Raliegh to just say something instead of Joliet)
FJ: :( Went with JFK as well
LT: Star Fort & (Infer)

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by twelvefootboy »

+1 for the victims of the FJ clue, although I've no problem with it as a TOC level question, or if it polls above 55% on this august board.

MY WTF moment:

Until 1957 this metal, symbol Be, was known as glucinium

NO IT WASN'T.

I found a Mendeleev 1906 periodic table. It says Be for Beryllium. END OF DISCUSSION, the boss has spoken!
More discussion :lol: : I get it for Niobium/Columbium and Wolfram/Tungsten. Both were in use all the way into the 60's and the PTB's made a decision. I never heard of glucinium, and I'm kind of an element nerd. The Manhattan project used Beryllium in the nukes, you'll not find Glucinium in any literature.
I watched two games tonight, and Lucy started slow and it cost her the lock, and the game today. I was hoping for a TOC spot for her.
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

Well, there's my first FJ miss of a non-Trebek episode in this incarnation of the show. (Yes, I got the Sajak-presented TRINIDADIAN AMATEUR ICHTHYOLOGISTS April Fool's FJ as a 13-year-old.) This might be one of those where if I'm in a crush second, or a third place where I need a sole get to win, I play the meta-game of deliberately avoiding what feels obvious in an effort to give a different response from those I'm behind. The logic is, if we're all right or we're all wrong, I can't win, so matching them won't help me, and therefore I've got nothing to lose by being contrarian. As it was I stuck with my inclination, with my only consolation being that I would have bet close to $0 and won anyway from Jennifer's position. (Her all-in made my above strategy viable again.)

But I think I would have had a better chance if I had reframed my JFK/LBJ dilemma in years, i.e., did Elizabeth have her last kid in 1961 or 1964? But I was just stuck on the idea that JFK didn't get a full four years, which made him feel more likely.

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by NYCScribbler »

I figured JFK was wrong not for any rational, logical reason, but because the factoid that his father was ambassador to the Court of St. James is lodged in my head, and I assumed that at some point she would have met the Ambassador's kids; what I wasn't sure about was whether the clue meant that she had to have met them as president.

Of course, my next guess was Ford, so..
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

jeff6286 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:13 pm
I kind of hate this final. The birth year of Prince Edward just seems like a completely useless hint. The birth years of her 4 children are 1948, 1950, 1960, 1964. Despite the two posters above bizarrely claiming they just know Edward was born in 1964, that is not any kind of clue to the vast majority of the population. Prince Edward has never at any time of his life been a well-known public figure to Americans so knowing whether he happened to be born in 1961 or 1964 is entirely arbitrary.
I'm inclined to agree. My assumption was that Prince Andrew was the youngest and him being born during the Kennedy era made sense to me. Add that to the fact Kennedy was only in office for three years certainly made JFK the best choice as far as I was concerned. I must admit I'm not even sure I knew of Prince Edward's existence and that certainly didn't help.

My wife said she remembered seeing a photo of QEII and Jackie Kennedy, but unfortunately that led her the wrong direction and she went with Eisenhower.
floridagator wrote:People hate this kind of final because they're typical Jeopardy fans/contestants who aren't capable of anything beyond basic recall, the lowest level on Bloom's taxonomy. They want to be asked something simple that they think no one else knows, like what's the capital of American Samoa. Today's FJ clue requires synthesizing two pieces of knowledge. It can be done by someone who is capable of applying knowledge and not merely being stone silent because they weren't asked a simple recall question. This is also typical of college quiz bowl players.
This probably isn't the most obnoxious post I've ever seen on this board, but it's up there.

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MattKnowles »

I like Final Jeopardy simply because it's a good piece of trivia.

Queen Elizabeth II has met every US President between Truman and Trump except for LBJ. Good factoid. I missed it with JFK.
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Peter the accountant »

I'm not entirely sure that watching The Crown was helpful. I've watched every episode. (It's a decent history primer, but can't be taken entirely at face value - there's a fair amount of literary license in it, but major events are based on actual history.) I knew JFK was wrong because they made a big deal about all of the protocol mistakes the President and First Lady made. LBJ featured significantly in the series as well. (The actor's southern accent was almost a caricature of a proper Texas drawl.) But Nixon wasn't memorable to me in the series. So he was my wrong answer. I knew QEII's youngest child was younger than me, but I wasn't sure how much.

As to her children's birth years being fair game - why not? For the number of times she's appeared in clues, knowing a fair amount about her and her family seems to be reasonable preparation as a contestant. I'm not good enough at searching the archive to find previous relevant clues, but I'd be shocked if Edward hasn't appeared a few times. At a minimum, "Charles, Anne, 10 years, Andrew, Edward" should be burned into memory, as should the fact that one was born in the 40s, one in the 50s and two in the 60s. That's a pretty broad spread of years for anyone, let alone a UK royal. Knowing there were two born in the 60s would immediately eliminate JFK from this FJ clue, leaving a coin flip between Johnson and Nixon. Of course, my coin flip came up wrong.
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by yclept »

Can they find a way to get Lucy into the TOC, like they were able to get Emma in? I jest, as I know there are a lot of strong 3-time champs in the history of the show who just couldn’t get that big 4th win to put themselves on the list.

The third DD turned out to be a waste but I wonder if she would have known it if she would have found it. Could have helped her get the runaway she needed.'

I see some FJ discussion here. I like clues that make you put pieces to the puzzle together to arrive at an answer. But, in this case, it doesn’t work quite as well. You really had to dig through some obscure info to even arrive at an educated guess. Oh well.

Ken continues to impress. He is setting a high bar for all who follow him.

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by BigDaddyMatty »

mas3cf wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:36 pm
*Currently scored as 0 because I don't know how to rule it: said Southern Pacific for Fresno. What I'm seeing about the history of the two railways makes it hard for me to parse out. If you look at the History of Fresno, it suggests CP is the right answer, but if you look at the history of SP, it sounds like that could be it. Both were owned by Leland Stanford et al. at the time of Fresno's founding, and Fresno ended up on the SP line. Anyone more knowledgeable willing to weigh in?
I think they'd have to accept either answer. (Full disclosure: I also answered Southern Pacific.) It appears that by the time of the building of the Fresno railroad station, SP and CP had merged. At the very least, SP would have been the subsidiary of CP on whose line the station sat.
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Picked Off »

Hated the final, but maybe I'd have felt differently if I went with LBJ instead of joining the JFK crowd. You could get close enough with quick math to figure it had to be one of those two, but at that point I figured shorter presidency = less time to meet the queen. Which presidents the queen has met is not something I've thought about before.

Jennifer's wager was utterly irrational, but she punched the ticket, while Lucy went 1-4 on finals during her run, but stuck around thanks to a clear buzzer edge. If Jennifer bets zero she's back Monday anyway. As it stands, she not only risked a win; she flirted with turning a win into a third.
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by lstone19 »

BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:33 am
mas3cf wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:36 pm
*Currently scored as 0 because I don't know how to rule it: said Southern Pacific for Fresno. What I'm seeing about the history of the two railways makes it hard for me to parse out. If you look at the History of Fresno, it suggests CP is the right answer, but if you look at the history of SP, it sounds like that could be it. Both were owned by Leland Stanford et al. at the time of Fresno's founding, and Fresno ended up on the SP line. Anyone more knowledgeable willing to weigh in?
I think they'd have to accept either answer. (Full disclosure: I also answered Southern Pacific.) It appears that by the time of the building of the Fresno railroad station, SP and CP had merged. At the very least, SP would have been the subsidiary of CP on whose line the station sat.
I answered SP as well. I am a railfan and in my mind, CP has always only been Sacramento to Promontory Point, then acquired (merged, whatever) into SP.

My quick research agrees with the above maybe. That research says CP was merged into SP in 1870 while Fresno's history page says the city was founded by CP in 1872. But another source says CP was leased by SP in 1885 and not fully merged until 1959. But railroad leases are a tricky thing. Historically, many railroads have officially been leased for long periods by the acquiring railroad. The leased railroad continued to exist on paper (in many cases, its stock owned nearly 100% by the leasing railroad) while not doing business under its own name. And then there is how the railroads were marketed. Entirely possible that given the common ownership between CP and SP that in 1870 they started marketing them both as SP even while CP legally being a separate railroad.

Given my knowledge, I would think either CP or SP should have been accepted but Union Pacific, as answered by one contestant, is too recent to be accepted.

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by zakharov »

floridagator wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:03 pm
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:49 pm


You are probably right, and that is the reason I hate-hate-hate this kind of clue. I know anything (at least hypothetically) is fair game to be clue material, but....


"When was QEII's youngest child born?" Who was POTUS then? Really????? All one can do is take an educated guess, which is not the way I like to see FJs go. Boo, hiss to the writers!
People hate this kind of final because they're typical Jeopardy fans/contestants who aren't capable of anything beyond basic recall, the lowest level on Bloom's taxonomy. They want to be asked something simple that they think no one else knows, like what's the capital of American Samoa. Today's FJ clue requires synthesizing two pieces of knowledge. It can be done by someone who is capable of applying knowledge and not merely being stone silent because they weren't asked a simple recall question. This is also typical of college quiz bowl players.
My god.....it's true....everyone except you is an idiot....why didn't I see this sooner.....
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mas3cf »

lstone19 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:20 am
BigDaddyMatty wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:33 am
mas3cf wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:36 pm
*Currently scored as 0 because I don't know how to rule it: said Southern Pacific for Fresno. What I'm seeing about the history of the two railways makes it hard for me to parse out. If you look at the History of Fresno, it suggests CP is the right answer, but if you look at the history of SP, it sounds like that could be it. Both were owned by Leland Stanford et al. at the time of Fresno's founding, and Fresno ended up on the SP line. Anyone more knowledgeable willing to weigh in?
I think they'd have to accept either answer. (Full disclosure: I also answered Southern Pacific.) It appears that by the time of the building of the Fresno railroad station, SP and CP had merged. At the very least, SP would have been the subsidiary of CP on whose line the station sat.
I answered SP as well. I am a railfan and in my mind, CP has always only been Sacramento to Promontory Point, then acquired (merged, whatever) into SP.

My quick research agrees with the above maybe. That research says CP was merged into SP in 1870 while Fresno's history page says the city was founded by CP in 1872. But another source says CP was leased by SP in 1885 and not fully merged until 1959. But railroad leases are a tricky thing. Historically, many railroads have officially been leased for long periods by the acquiring railroad. The leased railroad continued to exist on paper (in many cases, its stock owned nearly 100% by the leasing railroad) while not doing business under its own name. And then there is how the railroads were marketed. Entirely possible that given the common ownership between CP and SP that in 1870 they started marketing them both as SP even while CP legally being a separate railroad.

Given my knowledge, I would think either CP or SP should have been accepted but Union Pacific, as answered by one contestant, is too recent to be accepted.
Thanks! (And thanks, BigDaddyMatty as well). I think I'll count it. I chose SP based on the geography, and that piece turns out to have been indisputably correct. The history is a bit murky, but I don't see how I can neg myself for it.

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by twelvefootboy »

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:48 am
floridagator wrote:People hate this kind of final because they're typical Jeopardy fans/contestants who aren't capable of anything beyond basic recall, the lowest level on Bloom's taxonomy. They want to be asked something simple that they think no one else knows, like what's the capital of American Samoa. Today's FJ clue requires synthesizing two pieces of knowledge. It can be done by someone who is capable of applying knowledge and not merely being stone silent because they weren't asked a simple recall question. This is also typical of college quiz bowl players.
This probably isn't the most obnoxious post I've ever seen on this board, but it's up there.
It is somewhat Trumpian, if Trump was smarter.
Spoiler
(this space is in memorial for several paragraphs written and deleted. tfb doth not flame)

And I don't know the capital of American Samoa. Using the old blonde joke, it must start with AS and I can finish the blanks to make a guess :). I don't think any of the boardies have indicated they like to just fill in the blanks with rote knowledge vs. using a little deduction. I have no exposure to college quiz bowl players, but I'm sure they enjoy puzzles as well.

If we want to patronize and condescend: How about that 10 meter / 10,000 meter / 500 meter dash that is just slightly less than a mile? I don't blame the contestants, I blame our collective metric ignorance falls squarely on the political element that fears change, science, and progress. We must defend our feet, inches, and our right to incandescent light bulbs, polluted air, and dirty water.
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

Peter the accountant wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:38 am
At a minimum, "Charles, Anne, 10 years, Andrew, Edward" should be burned into memory, as should the fact that one was born in the 40s, one in the 50s and two in the 60s.
I cannot overstate how bizarre I find this statement.

To me it would be equivalent to a clue asking about Neal and Marvin Bush, and wanting us to know if they were born in Eisenhower's first term or their second. Who? Oh the lesser Bush children, why would I care about them or know the specific years they were born? Why would anyone know that? Or care?

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by floridagator »

I was over the top, I'll admit. I'll be better during the next Administration.
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

Peter the accountant wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:38 am
I'm not entirely sure that watching The Crown was helpful. I've watched every episode. (It's a decent history primer, but can't be taken entirely at face value - there's a fair amount of literary license in it, but major events are based on actual history.) I knew JFK was wrong because they made a big deal about all of the protocol mistakes the President and First Lady made. LBJ featured significantly in the series as well. (The actor's southern accent was almost a caricature of a proper Texas drawl.) But Nixon wasn't memorable to me in the series. So he was my wrong answer. I knew QEII's youngest child was younger than me, but I wasn't sure how much. ...
The Crown would've gotten you this entirely, but a bit more obliquely.
(Season 4 spoiler)
In S4, there's an episode where Edward turns 21 causing Margaret to lose her royal proxy. The episode's in the 80s, meaning Edward must have been born 1959-68. 59 is too late to be "three months into Eisenhower", S2 rules out Kennedy leaving LBJ as the only option left.
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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

zakharov wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:29 am
floridagator wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:03 pm
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:49 pm


You are probably right, and that is the reason I hate-hate-hate this kind of clue. I know anything (at least hypothetically) is fair game to be clue material, but....


"When was QEII's youngest child born?" Who was POTUS then? Really????? All one can do is take an educated guess, which is not the way I like to see FJs go. Boo, hiss to the writers!
People hate this kind of final because they're typical Jeopardy fans/contestants who aren't capable of anything beyond basic recall, the lowest level on Bloom's taxonomy. They want to be asked something simple that they think no one else knows, like what's the capital of American Samoa. Today's FJ clue requires synthesizing two pieces of knowledge. It can be done by someone who is capable of applying knowledge and not merely being stone silent because they weren't asked a simple recall question. This is also typical of college quiz bowl players.
My god.....it's true....everyone except you is an idiot....why didn't I see this sooner.....
In your defense....

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Re: Friday, January 15, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by trainman »

I have someone to whom I text the FJ! category and clue every night. She got LBJ immediately. I said only one of the contestants got it correct, and she responded, "The other two need to watch 'The Crown.'"

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