Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

This is where all of the games are discussed.

Moderators: alietr, trainman, econgator, dhkendall

User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 8380
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Vermonter wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:46 pm
I gave myself credit for "desiccate" under 9-LETTER WORDS, $800 ("To take the water out of something"). Judges?
Oh, absolutely! Good one. That spelling just looks wrong. I would've gone with dessicate. But the dictionary assures me that you're right and the squiggly red line under my spelling agrees.

User avatar
opusthepenguin
The Best Darn Penguin on the Whole JBoard
Posts: 8380
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:33 pm
Location: Shawnee, KS
Contact:

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

MattKnowles wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:44 pm
For the clue "It's a customary code of proper behavior or formalities in society" I said protocols.
I think they'd give it to you, maybe on reversal though.

talkingaway
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 969
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:59 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

MarkBarrett wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:24 pm
talkingaway wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:11 pm
...

For the $800 clue in 5 "E": "To give someone the tools they need". I said "empower". Judges? Seems to fit if you take "tools" as being figurative and not necessarily literal. "This book will empower you to start your own business."

In the ToC tracker, they apparently don't count consolation money, so for Brian, it's win or forget it.
The words seemed to be five-letter words and not just ones starting with "E". Ken did not explain this (or at least it did not air) so I don't know if you would bust the host on a technicality. It did happen to Alex sometimes.

Right, ignore the $1000 or $2000 of a departing champ's winning as far as ToC qualification.

I have no knowledge either way, so until Monday morning I can still wish for a play-in game with Brian & Zach. In that event watch the third player with no experience win and become the best friend of the bubble champs.
Oooooooooh, I'm so dense. I didn't even notice the length of the words. The category name did confuse me. At first, I thought it would be words with five "E"s in them, but if that were the case, the host would usually say that. Once the "elegy" clue came up, I figured the "5" referred to the five clues.

It wouldn't surprise me if they had to edit out the category qualifications and tighten up the category introductions for this episode, given that they had to devote extra time to the tiebreaker.

Related, I'm all for quirky/misleading categories - one show had THE EASTERN CONFERENCE about sports, and the next round, THE WESTERN CONFERENCE about conferences that take place outside of Asia. But the rule should be that if they're going to reject responses on the basis of the category, they have to announce what qualities responses are required to have. They either forgot to include the rule (or decided to include it) in Alex's last week of episodes with 3-NAMERS IN AMERICAN HISTORY, and it made the category a little less challenging.

Looking it up, the 5 "E" category is a pun to go with DUNGEONS & DRAGONS - they're apparently on their fifth edition.

AntmanB
Loyal Jeopardista
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:27 pm

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by AntmanB »

Its likely happening anyway, but Poll request for Yay or Nay on Tiebreakers.

I dont mind, Like i said, it would suck for teh person booted from a tie because they took the test, auditioned, come all the way to the studio only for them to say "Sorry, they Tied, you cant be on."

User avatar
This Is Kirk!
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 5440
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:35 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

AntmanB wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:17 am
I dont mind, Like i said, it would suck for teh person booted from a tie because they took the test, auditioned, come all the way to the studio only for them to say "Sorry, they Tied, you cant be on."
I doubt that would happen. I think anyone in this situation would be invited back later. Also (in normal times) they pad the group with LA locals who can more easily come back if they don't get on.

User avatar
Vermonter
2003 College Champion
Posts: 1944
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:57 pm

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Vermonter »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:56 pm
Vermonter wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:46 pm
I gave myself credit for "desiccate" under 9-LETTER WORDS, $800 ("To take the water out of something"). Judges?
Oh, absolutely! Good one. That spelling just looks wrong. I would've gone with dessicate. But the dictionary assures me that you're right and the squiggly red line under my spelling agrees.
I may or may not have had the same spelling issue. Either way, still nine letters
Hate bad wagering? Me too. Join me at The Final Wager.

mjhunt
Valued Contributor
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:45 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mjhunt »

I deleted this and went to the next post.
Last edited by mjhunt on Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

mjhunt
Valued Contributor
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:45 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mjhunt »

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:20 am
AntmanB wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:17 am
I dont mind, Like i said, it would suck for teh person booted from a tie because they took the test, auditioned, come all the way to the studio only for them to say "Sorry, they Tied, you cant be on."
I doubt that would happen. I think anyone in this situation would be invited back later. Also (in normal times) they pad the group with LA locals who can more easily come back if they don't get on.
It may not be that easy though.

For most of Jeopardy! history, a local alternate was bumped once or twice a season. I certainly have no problem with that.

Though, when Kristin Morgan tied twice, I think a contestant (I think I heard someone say her name was Lauren. Lauren Hopkins -Karcz?) had to fly back later. I can understand if she was annoyed by that. But, even that happening once every decade or two or so is tolerable to me.

But, the last sentence is the key thing. Kristin did not play to tie. She just happened to play in both an evenly spaced score situation AND a lock-tie in the six games she played, and the odds of that are pretty y small to begin with. And just the right conditions came together BOTH times to cause two ties. In the first tie, it was a triple stumper AND both Kristin and Parker both wagered exactly enough to win by a dollar AND third place overwagered. A lot had to happen!
http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=4055
The lock-tie was much more simple and likely, but even that was no more than 50%.
http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=4056

That makes it easy to see why it did not motivate a rule change. There was no reason to think it would keep happening.

But, Arthur Chu intentionally played for the tie in all his non-lock games and there was a large increase in the number of players doing that afterwards.
viewtopic.php?t=1902&start=280

That did give reason to think it could keep happening frequently.

I don't find the game theory arguments in favor of wagering to tie very convincing. As we have seen countless times this year and the last six, many in a close second overwager on their own. There is no need to offer a tie to dupe them into it. And, both before and after the rule change, they just as often held back $1/$2/$100 as went all in, so hoping for a tie offer cannot have been the basis for second place overwagers in most cases.

I like to think the wagering to tie would have faded and Jeopardy! could have gone back to the way it was with ties an occasional natural thing. And I can't imagine all ever would have. If nothing else, we have Christina McTighe, Kelly Griffin, Jonathan Marcus, Mary Ann Borer (best result for last), etc.

But, I obviously cannot know. It might have continued and become even more common.
Last edited by mjhunt on Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

seaborgium
Undefeated in Reruns
Posts: 7420
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.
It probably has more to do with the logistics of having to deny a spot to a contestant-to-be who has already paid their own way to the studio. During the first 19 seasons it must have basically been a non-issue, since 5x champs were being retired—I assume that was a more frequent occurrence (there were over 100 total, and over 150 if I counted right) than a tie game, and this would mean that the average number of new contestants per game stayed above 2.

Since the start of season 20, though, only winnerless regular games can counteract ties, and we've had exactly one in that time. Then in the wake of Arthur Chu's run, tie offers started happening much more frequently, and I suspect that when there were two ties in the last week of October 2014 (one of which involved a straight-up underwager by the leader rather than a tie offer, but I digress), TPTB decided that the new trend was unsustainable under the old rule and put the kibosh on co-champions.

talkingaway
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 969
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:59 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:20 am
AntmanB wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:17 am
I dont mind, Like i said, it would suck for teh person booted from a tie because they took the test, auditioned, come all the way to the studio only for them to say "Sorry, they Tied, you cant be on."
I doubt that would happen. I think anyone in this situation would be invited back later. Also (in normal times) they pad the group with LA locals who can more easily come back if they don't get on.
Well, it would suck to adjust your work schedule, fly across the country at your own expense, only to be the tenth person who doesn't get to play because of a tie. Even if you get invited back, you have to do it all over again. Would they pay your expenses as if you were the champion of a Friday episode? I guess it would be kinda fun to have two J-based vacations, and the second time you would be slightly more familiar with how the show works.

But, like you said, I've heard they do have a spare LA-based player who gets to come back for the next taping as a guaranteed contestant. But I thought that it was they had 11 challengers in the waiting room per taping day, in case someone got sick, or S&P found some kind of conflict. A tie would mean that they only use 9 people, and 2 people - the LA-based spare plus someone else - would go unused. If the tie's on Monday's episode, they can pull a nearby player out of the pool, but if it's on Thursday, there's not a lot of choice.

mjhunt
Valued Contributor
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:45 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by mjhunt »

seaborgium wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:42 am
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.
It probably has more to do with the logistics of having to deny a spot to a contestant-to-be who has already paid their own way to the studio. During the first 19 seasons it must have basically been a non-issue, since 5x champs were being retired—I assume that was a more frequent occurrence (there were over 100 total, and over 150 if I counted right) than a tie game, and this would mean that the average number of new contestants per game stayed above 2.

Since the start of season 20, though, only winnerless regular games can counteract ties, and we've had exactly one in that time. Then in the wake of Arthur Chu's run, tie offers started happening much more frequently, and I suspect that when there were two ties in the last week of October 2014 (one of which involved a straight-up underwager by the leader rather than a tie offer, but I digress), TPTB decided that the new trend was unsustainable under the old rule and put the kibosh on co-champions.
I understand this.

But, I do have a few questions?

When you were playing, was there discussion on the old board or other places that wagering to tie was a good strategy?

Did you consider offering ties? I know you didn't, I just wonder if you thought about it.

I guess i just find it surreal to look back at what happened. It is just unbelievable to me how fast it went and nobody seemed to have any idea what was about happen only a short time before.

An especially surreal example for me is this thread, when Nicole Mancone threw her lock-tie away 12/28/12. Wow. The comments were super caustic!
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1114

Yet, if she had been on only two years later, the thread would not have remotely resembled this.

User avatar
This Is Kirk!
Jeopardy! Champion
Posts: 5440
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:35 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

talkingaway wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:45 am
Would they pay your expenses as if you were the champion of a Friday episode? I
Not sure, but my presumption would be that they would.

cthulhu
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:29 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by cthulhu »

Lefty wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:51 pm
Before anyone else wastes a bunch of time, the speed of sound decreases as altitude increases, up to a point. So the Concorde clue is probably accurate.
More precisely, the speed of sound is proportional to the square root of the absolute temperature. Generally, temperature decreases with altitude in the troposphere and is fairly constant in the stratosphere (the international standard atmosphere model takes out the “generally” and “fairly” in the previous). However, in the real world, it is not uncommon to have a temperature inversion at low altitude, where temperature increases significantly as you ascend; in some situations, the inversion layer can be several thousands of feet thick. And in the stratosphere, you can get temperature movement both ways as altitude increases.

seaborgium
Undefeated in Reruns
Posts: 7420
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

mjhunt wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:52 am

I understand this.

But, I do have a few questions?

When you were playing, was there discussion on the old board or other places that wagering to tie was a good strategy?

Did you consider offering ties? I know you didn't, I just wonder if you thought about it.
To answer the second question first (well it's your third question, but the second actual question :lol: ), no (although technically I did offer a tie in my fifth game, albeit by wagering $0 from a close second because third place had exactly half my score); there were two games where I had a non-lock lead, and I covered by $1 in both of them. The only time I considered anything else was in the second one, where I was curious if I could get my grand total to some cute amount, but I gave up on that and stuck with the $1 cover.

There was a 2x champ named Tom Toce several months after my run ended, who was also a member of the Sony boards, and it was an explicit part of his strategy to offer ties from the lead in FJ. The basic idea is that since getting to precisely double your closest opponent's score will guarantee you come back the next day, why risk a penny more than it takes to do that? And certainly there have been players in a trailing position who have calculated the $[x]99 the leader will fall to on a $1 cover and aimed for $[x+1]00 (from either direction); under those circumstances, the leader loses by the amount they chose to cover by, and the tie offer will save them. The possibility of this was Tom's main motivation for the strategy, as he laid out in his Winner's Blog. But he may have also acknowledged elsewhere that continued use of this strategy might improve his chances of winning on TS clues from a close lead, because the player in second place who has previously seen him offer ties might attempt to take up the offer and fall to $0 as a result. This is the earliest time I specifically remember the wager-to-tie strategy being discussed as an actual strategy.

I understood the strategy, but I hated the idea that a player in second place might end up regretting a good wager under circumstances where all-in would have gotten them a tie. I think I put too fine a point on that opinion, because he responded that surely I caused my opponents regret during my run. I think he believed my opinion was that he owed it to his opponents to win (in the event of double or triple gets) with totals they couldn't have reached.

User avatar
Woppy T
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:59 am

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woppy T »

John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.

I would just hate-hate-hate to get one chance in all my life to be on this show, play as well as our challenger did tonight, finish the regular game with a correctly-wagered and correctly-answered final, have ALL that $$, and then have to risk it all on one Who-Can-Ring-In-First playoff.

So yeah, boo, hiss to the tiebreaker.
My thinking exactly. I don’t hate the concept of a tiebreaker, but it hate the fact that the tiebreaker is a one question buzzer race. I don’t have any strong opinions an alternative (a 1-minute lightning round maybe?) but I hate the one question win or go home.

User avatar
alietr
Site Admin
Posts: 7559
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:20 pm
Location: Bethesda, MD

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

Woppy T wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:20 am
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.

I would just hate-hate-hate to get one chance in all my life to be on this show, play as well as our challenger did tonight, finish the regular game with a correctly-wagered and correctly-answered final, have ALL that $$, and then have to risk it all on one Who-Can-Ring-In-First playoff.

So yeah, boo, hiss to the tiebreaker.
My thinking exactly. I don’t hate the concept of a tiebreaker, but it hate the fact that the tiebreaker is a one question buzzer race. I don’t have any strong opinions an alternative (a 1-minute lightning round maybe?) but I hate the one question win or go home.
I got back just a few minutes too late to say the exact same thing. A buzzer race for it all? Really? They could have made the question at least a little challenging.

User avatar
jeff6286
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 4921
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:34 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:22 pm

Oh, Maggie, Maggie, Maggie. You had 9,994 non-terrible wagers to choose from. Some would've been borderline ok, but none would have been terrible. You chose the 9,995th. It was clear that Brian and Jack would at least have to seriously consider betting it all lest the other one get ahead and win. So bet to leave yourself at LEAST a buck on a triple stumper. Ideally, more than a buck since you can't guarantee that Brian and/or Jack won't try to leave themselves a dollar. But at least a buck. There's no sane reason not to.

What are the other 6 wagers she shoudln't have made?

User avatar
jeff6286
Watches Jeopardy! Way Too Much
Posts: 4921
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:34 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:48 pm
NYCScribbler wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:32 pm
I do love me a good WNBA reference, even if none of the contestants did, even when spotted the city. That being said, the Mercury isn't even the most apropos team for the category. Anyone want to take a shot at a) which team it is and b) writing a clue for that team?
WNBA: The Puget Sound region is often affected by these weather phenomena, including the 1962 Columbus Day one that devastated much of the Pacific Northwest coast.
Spoiler
Ooh sorry, your clue is asking for a plural and this team name is singular. Speaking of which...

Bamaman wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:54 pm
StevenH wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:33 pm
I probably heard wrong, but it sounded to me like Jack said "continent" for "consonant."

It was cool to see the clue on Jellyfish Lake in Palau. I remember when a visit to it was featured as a reward on Survivor.

I guessed Lenin on the tiebreaker clue, but I wasn't sure.
I heard the same thing.

On a side note, I hate categories on words that are a bunch of letters long. Usually it doesn’t matter if you make a word plural or not. But it did here and could have cost Brian the game because he couldn’t figure out on the fly how many letters are in consonant.
This is sort of like saying I hate all wordplay categories. They all have some kind of constraint which is what makes them wordplay categories, and they have long been a major part of the game. You do have to pay attention to both the category and the clue in these instances. Rhyme Time means I have to say Al's pals, I can't say Gore's buddies. "G"eography means I have to say Godwin-Austen and not K2. In this case the clue was written to ask for singular so if one didn't trust themselves to mentally count the letters in consonant(s) they could simply re-check the clue and see "or" rather than "and". Often a similar case might involve checking for "this" or "these".

User avatar
Picked Off
Jeopardy! Contestant
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Picked Off »

With props to Brian, I really feel for Jack. He did every single thing he did to win the game, and deserved to, but he effectively lost on a coin flip.

Before a FJ solve, we spent the commercial break hashing out wagering scenarios. It's a tough nut to crack under the new rules. Do you protect against two solves with the risk of wiping out to zero and definitely losing, or do you try to split the difference somehow and hope the other person in the exact same spot sees it the way you do? If you risk it all and get it right, that still might not be enough, as we saw. But there is also a case to be made for giving yourself more avenues to an outright win earlier by reserving some cash. The fact is you just don't know how the other person will bet or how likely a double solve or miss is. Fascinating scenario. In the end they both did what they probably had to and solved. It's like watching an overtime buzzer beater.

We also took for granted that Maggie would do the sensible thing and wager $8,801 and waltz to a victory on a double or triple miss. But....nah.
Season 27 player and lifelong fan

Bamaman
Also Receiving Votes
Posts: 10704
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

In Maggie’s spot I would have bet $9,998. I would assume the leaders would bet it all but one might hold back a dollar so that thwarts that strategy. If I hated the category I would probably bet nothing.

In the lead I would absolutely bet it all. Even if I hated the category.

Post Reply