Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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talkingaway
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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

alietr wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:44 am
Woppy T wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:20 am
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.

I would just hate-hate-hate to get one chance in all my life to be on this show, play as well as our challenger did tonight, finish the regular game with a correctly-wagered and correctly-answered final, have ALL that $$, and then have to risk it all on one Who-Can-Ring-In-First playoff.

So yeah, boo, hiss to the tiebreaker.
My thinking exactly. I don’t hate the concept of a tiebreaker, but it hate the fact that the tiebreaker is a one question buzzer race. I don’t have any strong opinions an alternative (a 1-minute lightning round maybe?) but I hate the one question win or go home.
I got back just a few minutes too late to say the exact same thing. A buzzer race for it all? Really? They could have made the question at least a little challenging.
That's the best argument against the tiebreaker, and I have to agree with you there. I have no doubt that both contestants knew the correct response to the tiebreaker - it was a pretty simple clue, and I'm pretty sure I saw some hand action from Jack. It's not a perfect format, but it's easy to explain, and gets the job done.

There are a few problems with changing the format - how do they fit a 1 minute lightning round in, when the extra clue already takes a minute when you consider that Ken already has to explain the tiebreaker rules? The editors are going to have a heart attack whenever there's a potential tie situation.

Also, aren't a vast swath of clues on J! just simply buzzer races between at least 2, if not all 3, contestants? Instead of thinking of a tie breaker as a 62nd clue, you can think of it as a retroactive 31st clue on the J! board, worth $1.

You could have contestants have a sudden-death shootout, not unlike The Weakest Link's final round, but only have 1 clue given to each player. For added fun and website traffic, you only need to air the final, determining round - “portions of this program not affecting the outcome may have been edited". Toss up the other rounds online for fun.

But I think that's a little nitpicky - the current tiebreaker round is adequate, especially considering it seems to only happen once every other year.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Woof »

Woppy T wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:20 am
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.

I would just hate-hate-hate to get one chance in all my life to be on this show, play as well as our challenger did tonight, finish the regular game with a correctly-wagered and correctly-answered final, have ALL that $$, and then have to risk it all on one Who-Can-Ring-In-First playoff.

So yeah, boo, hiss to the tiebreaker.
My thinking exactly. I don’t hate the concept of a tiebreaker, but it hate the fact that the tiebreaker is a one question buzzer race. I don’t have any strong opinions an alternative (a 1-minute lightning round maybe?) but I hate the one question win or go home.
I’m pretty much in the same camp. Why not run a second FJ? Sure they’d have to edit it down a bit, but that would make for better TV IMO

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Golf »

Bamaman wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:30 am
In Maggie’s spot I would have bet $9,998. I would assume the leaders would bet it all but one might hold back a dollar so that thwarts that strategy. If I hated the category I would probably bet nothing.

In the lead I would absolutely bet it all. Even if I hated the category.
From Maggie's spot there are two viable wagers, 0 or 8801. From the leader's perspectives there are two viable wagers, 1201 or everything.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Hey, I just had an awesome idea that should satisfy everyone. Keep the tiebreaker, but instead of making it hinge on a single clue, make it hinge on a whole tiebreaker GAME. Bring in a new third contestant as a potential spoiler to make things interesting. That seems a lot more fair. What do you think?

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

talkingaway wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:31 am
That's the best argument against the tiebreaker, and I have to agree with you there. I have no doubt that both contestants knew the correct response to the tiebreaker - it was a pretty simple clue, and I'm pretty sure I saw some hand action from Jack. It's not a perfect format, but it's easy to explain, and gets the job done.
Save time by making it a strict buzzer race. 1-2-3 Go!!! Ok, Brian, you win. Better luck next time, Jack! Oh, wait....

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

jeff6286 wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:05 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:22 pm

Oh, Maggie, Maggie, Maggie. You had 9,994 non-terrible wagers to choose from. Some would've been borderline ok, but none would have been terrible. You chose the 9,995th. It was clear that Brian and Jack would at least have to seriously consider betting it all lest the other one get ahead and win. So bet to leave yourself at LEAST a buck on a triple stumper. Ideally, more than a buck since you can't guarantee that Brian and/or Jack won't try to leave themselves a dollar. But at least a buck. There's no sane reason not to.

What are the other 6 wagers she shoudln't have made?
Only 5 other wagers. The 6th is the one she actually made. 14, 69, 88, 666, and 1488 are all prohibited. When I started my post, I said there were 9,999 non-terrible wagers. But then I thought of those exceptions and worried some smart-arse would call me on them. So I beat the smart-arse to the punch.

Thanks for taking the bait! Now I'm waiting to see if anyone will ask the other question I was trolling for in that post.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

mjhunt wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:42 am
But, Arthur Chu intentionally played for the tie in all his non-lock games and there was a large increase in the number of players doing that afterwards.
viewtopic.php?t=1902&start=280
Did you mean "wasn't"? Not sniping, just curious. I don't recall a large post-Chu increase in betting to tie. And it seems as though they acted fairly quickly to introduce the no-tie rule after Chu's games aired, so there wouldn't have been a lot of time to see the effects. (It's also possible they waited a couple of years and I'm just experiencing the time compression that comes with age.)

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

Woppy T wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:20 am
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.

I would just hate-hate-hate to get one chance in all my life to be on this show, play as well as our challenger did tonight, finish the regular game with a correctly-wagered and correctly-answered final, have ALL that $$, and then have to risk it all on one Who-Can-Ring-In-First playoff.

So yeah, boo, hiss to the tiebreaker.
My thinking exactly. I don’t hate the concept of a tiebreaker, but it hate the fact that the tiebreaker is a one question buzzer race. I don’t have any strong opinions an alternative (a 1-minute lightning round maybe?) but I hate the one question win or go home.
How about break ties like pub quizzes often do? Give a numerical clue and the person closest wins. Something like "Jupiter's average distance from the Sun is this many million miles."

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MattKnowles »

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:06 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:20 am
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.

I would just hate-hate-hate to get one chance in all my life to be on this show, play as well as our challenger did tonight, finish the regular game with a correctly-wagered and correctly-answered final, have ALL that $$, and then have to risk it all on one Who-Can-Ring-In-First playoff.

So yeah, boo, hiss to the tiebreaker.
My thinking exactly. I don’t hate the concept of a tiebreaker, but it hate the fact that the tiebreaker is a one question buzzer race. I don’t have any strong opinions an alternative (a 1-minute lightning round maybe?) but I hate the one question win or go home.
How about break ties like pub quizzes often do? Give a numerical clue and the person closest wins. Something like "Jupiter's average distance from the Sun is this many million miles."
I like this idea and hope they implement it.
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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

talkingaway wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:09 am
Looking it up, the 5 "E" category is a pun to go with DUNGEONS & DRAGONS - they're apparently on their fifth edition.
Nice! The writers out-nerded me.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:35 am
jeff6286 wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:05 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:22 pm

Oh, Maggie, Maggie, Maggie. You had 9,994 non-terrible wagers to choose from. Some would've been borderline ok, but none would have been terrible. You chose the 9,995th. It was clear that Brian and Jack would at least have to seriously consider betting it all lest the other one get ahead and win. So bet to leave yourself at LEAST a buck on a triple stumper. Ideally, more than a buck since you can't guarantee that Brian and/or Jack won't try to leave themselves a dollar. But at least a buck. There's no sane reason not to.

What are the other 6 wagers she shoudln't have made?
Only 5 other wagers. The 6th is the one she actually made. 14, 69, 88, 666, and 1488 are all prohibited. When I started my post, I said there were 9,999 non-terrible wagers. But then I thought of those exceptions and worried some smart-arse would call me on them. So I beat the smart-arse to the punch.

Thanks for taking the bait! Now I'm waiting to see if anyone will ask the other question I was trolling for in that post.
jeff6286 wasn't in error when he said "other 6 wagers"; you've still left one unaccounted for.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

seaborgium wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:42 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:35 am
jeff6286 wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:05 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:22 pm

Oh, Maggie, Maggie, Maggie. You had 9,994 non-terrible wagers to choose from. Some would've been borderline ok, but none would have been terrible. You chose the 9,995th. It was clear that Brian and Jack would at least have to seriously consider betting it all lest the other one get ahead and win. So bet to leave yourself at LEAST a buck on a triple stumper. Ideally, more than a buck since you can't guarantee that Brian and/or Jack won't try to leave themselves a dollar. But at least a buck. There's no sane reason not to.

What are the other 6 wagers she shoudln't have made?
Only 5 other wagers. The 6th is the one she actually made. 14, 69, 88, 666, and 1488 are all prohibited. When I started my post, I said there were 9,999 non-terrible wagers. But then I thought of those exceptions and worried some smart-arse would call me on them. So I beat the smart-arse to the punch.

Thanks for taking the bait! Now I'm waiting to see if anyone will ask the other question I was trolling for in that post.
jeff6286 wasn't in error when he said "other 6 wagers"; you've still left one unaccounted for.
Yep, I screwed up the math by thinking there were 10,000 possible wagers before removing the banned ones. In fact there are 10,001 possible wagers since 0 is a possible wager in addition to all the integers from 1 to 10,000 inclusive. So 10,001 wagers minus the 5 prohibited ones leaves us with 9,996 possible wagers, one of which is terrible. Unless I screwed up the math a third time.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

MattKnowles wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:13 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:06 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:20 am
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.

I would just hate-hate-hate to get one chance in all my life to be on this show, play as well as our challenger did tonight, finish the regular game with a correctly-wagered and correctly-answered final, have ALL that $$, and then have to risk it all on one Who-Can-Ring-In-First playoff.

So yeah, boo, hiss to the tiebreaker.
My thinking exactly. I don’t hate the concept of a tiebreaker, but it hate the fact that the tiebreaker is a one question buzzer race. I don’t have any strong opinions an alternative (a 1-minute lightning round maybe?) but I hate the one question win or go home.
How about break ties like pub quizzes often do? Give a numerical clue and the person closest wins. Something like "Jupiter's average distance from the Sun is this many million miles."
I like this idea and hope they implement it.
Could still be tied even if you use TPIR "without going over" rules if both players happen to guess the same number. You could go Card Sharks and randomly select which player guesses and which one takes over/under.

I'd argue that it's not a great tiebreaker since it doesn't look like the main game...but you could argue back that a lot of categories don't look like the main game. Alex played charades with referee signs for one category, and there were two or three "bonus" categories years ago where you could give one response, and opt to go double or nothing by giving a second response. There are games-within-games - I'm sure they've had "name the country's flag" categories, or even the simple anagram clues. J! is not really a simple trivia game - a good quarter of the show is often atypical for a trivia show, so almost anything can foot.

But the current format is still passable to me. I'd rather spend my time figuring out a better way to fix ties in regular season hockey - the shootout is the bane of my existence.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by econgator »

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:06 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:20 am
John Boy wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 pm
Woppy T wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:06 pm
I HATE THE TIEBREAKER
Amen. I can't imagine that the reason for it is simply $$, as it can't possibly make that much of a dent in the J! budget if they have to give out two first prizes once per season or so. Doesn't strike me as more emotionally satisfying this way either.

I would just hate-hate-hate to get one chance in all my life to be on this show, play as well as our challenger did tonight, finish the regular game with a correctly-wagered and correctly-answered final, have ALL that $$, and then have to risk it all on one Who-Can-Ring-In-First playoff.

So yeah, boo, hiss to the tiebreaker.
My thinking exactly. I don’t hate the concept of a tiebreaker, but it hate the fact that the tiebreaker is a one question buzzer race. I don’t have any strong opinions an alternative (a 1-minute lightning round maybe?) but I hate the one question win or go home.
How about break ties like pub quizzes often do? Give a numerical clue and the person closest wins. Something like "Jupiter's average distance from the Sun is this many million miles."
I'd even be OK with something as simple as most correct clues.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

jeff6286 wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:06 am
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:48 pm
NYCScribbler wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:32 pm
I do love me a good WNBA reference, even if none of the contestants did, even when spotted the city. That being said, the Mercury isn't even the most apropos team for the category. Anyone want to take a shot at a) which team it is and b) writing a clue for that team?
WNBA: The Puget Sound region is often affected by these weather phenomena, including the 1962 Columbus Day one that devastated much of the Pacific Northwest coast.
Spoiler
Ooh sorry, your clue is asking for a plural and this team name is singular.
I guess I better keep my day job.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by TenPoundHammer »

I think my opinion on tiebreaker clues is swayed a bit by how Wheel handles them.

On Wheel, ties are broken by playing another Toss-Up puzzle, and whoever rings in with the right answer wins (before Toss-Ups, they'd play another speed round instead). Originally the tiebreaker Toss-Up puzzle had no additional value, but a couple years ago they decided to add $1,000 to the tiebreaker puzzle. I like the latter because it's more objective and the player who gives the right answer legitimately has a higher total now.

Should J! do likewise an assign a value to the tiebreaker clue? Play it like a $1,000 or $2,000 box? Obviously wagering on the TB clue would make no sense since the only valid wagers would be $0 or everything -- thus opening up the possibility of both players STILL being tied or both zeroing out.
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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:06 pm
How about break ties like pub quizzes often do? Give a numerical clue and the person closest wins. Something like "Jupiter's average distance from the Sun is this many million miles."
The last pub quiz I went to that needed a tiebreaker had a dance-off. Rex Kramer won it for us.

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Vermonter »

Golf wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:49 am
Bamaman wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:30 am
In Maggie’s spot I would have bet $9,998. I would assume the leaders would bet it all but one might hold back a dollar so that thwarts that strategy. If I hated the category I would probably bet nothing.

In the lead I would absolutely bet it all. Even if I hated the category.
From Maggie's spot there are two viable wagers, 0 or 8801. From the leader's perspectives there are two viable wagers, 1201 or everything.
I don't take this lightly, since I believe this is the first time this has ever happened, but I'm going to disagree with you here on both counts. For one, Maggie needs to wager 8,801-9,999 to cover a potential zero wager by both leaders.

After Claire McNear emailed me last night with some questions for today's article, it dawned on me that I'd never explored the game theory of this specific situation. If you read below, you can kinda see why — conceptually, it's a mess. (Fear not: I plan to make a video.)

WARNING: GAME THEORY

Although it seems like it might be, wagering 1,201 is not a viable option because it assumes two outcomes that are mutually exclusive. Let's look at this situation from Brian's perspective.

First, consider your options against Jack. In three of the four possible Right/Wrong combinations — RR, RW, WR — wagering everything either gives you the best possible outcome (when you get it right) or is irrelevant (you miss while Jack gets it right and wagers more than zero).

The only combinations when an all-in wager could hurt you is WW, along with WR where Jack wagers zero. Therefore, against Jack, the only time you should wager zero is if you feel there's a >50% chance that BOTH (1) you'll get it wrong AND (2) Jack will either (a) get it wrong or (b) wager zero.

Next, assume you have only two options against Maggie: zero or 1,201. Assuming she wagers properly — a big if, of course, but in game theory, we consider only rational behavior — the sole scenario under which it makes a difference is when you both respond correctly. So by wagering 1,201, you are saying you feel there's a >50% chance that you both get it right.

Finally, let's combine those two statements. By not wagering everything, you're saying there's a >50% chance you'll get it wrong; by wagering 1,201 instead of zero, you're saying there's a >50% chance you'll get it right. Both of those cannot be true.

Conclusion: you should wager everything — unless you feel there is a >50% chance that (1) you'll get it wrong, (2) Maggie will get it wrong, AND (3) Jack will either (a) get it wrong or (b) wager zero, in which case you should wager zero.
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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:35 am
jeff6286 wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:05 am
opusthepenguin wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:22 pm

Oh, Maggie, Maggie, Maggie. You had 9,994 non-terrible wagers to choose from. Some would've been borderline ok, but none would have been terrible. You chose the 9,995th. It was clear that Brian and Jack would at least have to seriously consider betting it all lest the other one get ahead and win. So bet to leave yourself at LEAST a buck on a triple stumper. Ideally, more than a buck since you can't guarantee that Brian and/or Jack won't try to leave themselves a dollar. But at least a buck. There's no sane reason not to.

What are the other 6 wagers she shoudln't have made?
Only 5 other wagers. The 6th is the one she actually made. 14, 69, 88, 666, and 1488 are all prohibited. When I started my post, I said there were 9,999 non-terrible wagers. But then I thought of those exceptions and worried some smart-arse would call me on them. So I beat the smart-arse to the punch.

Thanks for taking the bait! Now I'm waiting to see if anyone will ask the other question I was trolling for in that post.
I did not know you were talking about the supposed "banned numbers". I thought maybe you were confusing this for a DD where her minimum wager would be $5 but otherwise wasn't sure where you had come up with that number. I for one will never worrry about the banned wagers in board discussions, as I have no idea if that list is correct or complete. I don't recall how many players have verified the existence of this banned list or who they were and when it was confirmed as being in place. Remember we heard from contestants that "shout outs" were now banned but then some months later they started showing up again and it would seem based on all evidence that no player was ever ruled incorrect because of one and clearly they weren't re-taping the FJ to excise it. So even accepting that the "banned numbers" were true when reported, there's no way of knowing if this is still the case or if any additional numbers may or may not have been added to the list. So for wagering discussions best just to ignore them!

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Re: Friday, January 22, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by twelvefootboy »

I'm just now back on the grid, and missed the game last night. I'm almost glad I did because of the unnecessary evil ending.

I think I've previously compared the current J! rule to the atrocities of soccer and hockey tie breakers. But even they at least require a modicum of skill related to the craft. Sure playing J! is a buzzer skill, but that is not the spectator attraction of the game.

I am OK with the suggestion of a guess the numerical value of something type question. My wag for Jupiter's distance from the sun is (don't open this if you want to play along, until you choose your guess)
Spoiler
480,000,000 miles
. I think I'd rather play against someone else's value instead of letting them take the 50/50 over/under (assuming I'm close).

IMHO, the fairest thing is just to keep playing questions that they both answer secretly until you have a make/miss question. Just show the question on screen and skip the dead time to the reveal. It could be edited to just show the final round, or 5 rounds could just be shown in quick succession without the dead time in less than 30 seconds.
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