Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

The paragraph in question (it was in the introduction to Caro's book The Passage of Power):

Caro Excerpt.png
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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by A Wray »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:28 am
I was reading an article about a guy who tried to ship himself in a crate from Australia to London back in 1965. It had this sentence, "the stowaway was sent home to London on a plane - this time in the cabin." Imagine if that had said "a cabin". It would sound completely off, right? Bad English. It's always THE cabin, because it's the cabin of the plane. You never call it A cabin, as though there might be others. Only one cabin per plane.

Put it another way. And I know I'm beating a dead horse because I'm really irked. Would you ever say, "I boarded the plane. I spent the next 5 hours in a cabin"? Ludicrous.

Am I the only one who considered LBJ and rejected the idea because no competent writer would say they were in "a cabin" when they were in the cabin of the plane? If Robert Caro (the writer of the quoted biography) had just changed that one incorrect article, I'd have gotten this FJ with no difficulty. As it is, this clue reads like one of those Car Talk puzzlers where they're deliberately trying to mislead.
Surely you would agree that there are multiple airplanes that exist in the world. Therefore there are multiple cabins, and therefore there is nothing wrong with "a cabin."

The sentence you quote in your first paragraph isn't relevant to the Caro quote. "A" would be wrong there because of the specific context, not because of some general rule about what article can be used with "cabin."

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by A Wray »

Thanks, alietr, for providing the context. If you asked 100 literate, well-educated people to copy-edit that passage, I suspect none would flag the "a." That in itself demonstrates that it's idiomatic English.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by alietr »

A Wray wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:42 pm
Thanks, alietr, for providing the context. If you asked 100 literate, well-educated people to copy-edit that passage, I suspect none would flag the "a." That in itself demonstrates that it's idiomatic English.
It's a terrible sentence though. It meanders all over the place. The diagram would look ridiculous.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by floridagator »

TenPoundHammer wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:20 pm
I also have a connection to Kenny Rogers. The day after my Wheel audition that got me on the show, my sister and I went to see him in Detroit. I didn't get to sing with him though.
Dude. You can't really think that's a connection to Kenny Rogers.

We never got a straight answer as to whether he died of you know what.

I had no hope on Final. I was vacillating between Theodore Roosevelt and Harry Truman. I know that neither of them were with the president at the end, and it made sense to me that one or the other could have been off in a cabin. I went with Truman.
I'd rather cuddle then have sex. If you're into grammar, you'll understand.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

Truman was having a drink with Sam Rayburn when FDR died. FDR was in a cabin so his last presidential decisions were in a cabin. Don’t know if it was sweltering. I drive by Warm Springs yesterday (we are very close to the anniversary of his death) and it wasn’t very sweltering.

Side note...highly recommend taking a tour if you are in the area. I went through a couple years ago. The place is exactly like it was the day he died.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by floridagator »

It couldn't have been sweltering from the climate. They had a roaring fire going in the fireplace. When FDR stroked out, he was thrust forward into the fireplace and his head was roasted like a peanut.
I'd rather cuddle then have sex. If you're into grammar, you'll understand.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

floridagator wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:24 pm
It couldn't have been sweltering from the climate. They had a roaring fire going in the fireplace. When FDR stroked out, he was thrust forward into the fireplace and his head was roasted like a peanut.
That's a mental image I could live without.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

A Wray wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:36 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:28 am
I was reading an article about a guy who tried to ship himself in a crate from Australia to London back in 1965. It had this sentence, "the stowaway was sent home to London on a plane - this time in the cabin." Imagine if that had said "a cabin". It would sound completely off, right? Bad English. It's always THE cabin, because it's the cabin of the plane. You never call it A cabin, as though there might be others. Only one cabin per plane.

Put it another way. And I know I'm beating a dead horse because I'm really irked. Would you ever say, "I boarded the plane. I spent the next 5 hours in a cabin"? Ludicrous.

Am I the only one who considered LBJ and rejected the idea because no competent writer would say they were in "a cabin" when they were in the cabin of the plane? If Robert Caro (the writer of the quoted biography) had just changed that one incorrect article, I'd have gotten this FJ with no difficulty. As it is, this clue reads like one of those Car Talk puzzlers where they're deliberately trying to mislead.
Surely you would agree that there are multiple airplanes that exist in the world. Therefore there are multiple cabins, and therefore there is nothing wrong with "a cabin."
I disagree. As I point out in my earlier posts, even when referring to "a plane", one does not naturally refer to "a cabin" on the plane, as though it has more than one. I believe the sentence is clumsily written and "a cabin" should have been revised to say "the cabin".

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

alietr wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:08 pm
A Wray wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:42 pm
Thanks, alietr, for providing the context. If you asked 100 literate, well-educated people to copy-edit that passage, I suspect none would flag the "a." That in itself demonstrates that it's idiomatic English.
It's a terrible sentence though. It meanders all over the place. The diagram would look ridiculous.
Yeah, a copy editor would probably recommend a total rewrite. That aside, at least one literate, well-educated person would flag the "a". It's not the only thing wrong with the sentence, but it's one of them.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by seaborgium »

Robert Caro must have written that sentence with the hope that it would get quoted for a Final Jeopardy.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by twelvefootboy »

alietr wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:08 pm
A Wray wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:42 pm
Thanks, alietr, for providing the context. If you asked 100 literate, well-educated people to copy-edit that passage, I suspect none would flag the "a." That in itself demonstrates that it's idiomatic English.
It's a terrible sentence though. It meanders all over the place. The diagram would look ridiculous.
It would have been great if it was a dark and stormy night. :lol:

I figured the use of "a cabin" would be OK in the unknown (to us) context around it. I don't see any good way to use that excerpt. If they clarify airplane parenthetically, then it eliminates 1/3 of the century and almost makes a gimme clue. This makes at least 3 FJ clues by guest hosts that were just not well constructed. Others off the top of my head:
Spoiler
Wth was that John Wilkes Booth clue about requiring that both acting and assholery are inherited, and the Mr. Rogers clue required YEKIOYD (which is OK, to a point). I know there are others, will append when they come back to me.
Disclaimer - repeated exposure to author's musings may cause befuddlement.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Bamaman »

twelvefootboy wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:16 pm
alietr wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:08 pm
A Wray wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:42 pm
Thanks, alietr, for providing the context. If you asked 100 literate, well-educated people to copy-edit that passage, I suspect none would flag the "a." That in itself demonstrates that it's idiomatic English.
It's a terrible sentence though. It meanders all over the place. The diagram would look ridiculous.
It would have been great if it was a dark and stormy night. :lol:

I figured the use of "a cabin" would be OK in the unknown (to us) context around it. I don't see any good way to use that excerpt. If they clarify airplane parenthetically, then it eliminates 1/3 of the century and almost makes a gimme clue. This makes at least 3 FJ clues by guest hosts that were just not well constructed. Others off the top of my head:
Spoiler
Wth was that John Wilkes Booth clue about requiring that both acting and assholery are inherited, and the Mr. Rogers clue required YEKIOYD (which is OK, to a point). I know there are others, will append when they come back to me.
Spoiler
I wouldn’t say Rogers was YEKIOYD. I didn’t know it but got it right because it sounded like something he would say. As for the elder Booth, the guy he threatened to kill wasn’t exactly a saint. Booth was taking his life into his hands with that. Had he called Mrs. Jackson a ho, then JWB might never been born.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by OrangeSAM »

Caro's phrasing is meant to establish atmosphere, not to pin down a specific place.
OCSam

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:57 pm
A Wray wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:36 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:28 am
I was reading an article about a guy who tried to ship himself in a crate from Australia to London back in 1965. It had this sentence, "the stowaway was sent home to London on a plane - this time in the cabin." Imagine if that had said "a cabin". It would sound completely off, right? Bad English. It's always THE cabin, because it's the cabin of the plane. You never call it A cabin, as though there might be others. Only one cabin per plane.

Put it another way. And I know I'm beating a dead horse because I'm really irked. Would you ever say, "I boarded the plane. I spent the next 5 hours in a cabin"? Ludicrous.

Am I the only one who considered LBJ and rejected the idea because no competent writer would say they were in "a cabin" when they were in the cabin of the plane? If Robert Caro (the writer of the quoted biography) had just changed that one incorrect article, I'd have gotten this FJ with no difficulty. As it is, this clue reads like one of those Car Talk puzzlers where they're deliberately trying to mislead.
Surely you would agree that there are multiple airplanes that exist in the world. Therefore there are multiple cabins, and therefore there is nothing wrong with "a cabin."
I disagree. As I point out in my earlier posts, even when referring to "a plane", one does not naturally refer to "a cabin" on the plane, as though it has more than one. I believe the sentence is clumsily written and "a cabin" should have been revised to say "the cabin".
You should google the expression "first class cabin." Air Force One is divided into sections as well.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Anachronism »

Other than relating to an unusual transition in power, I was clueless. Went with Ford, thinking the window shades might be an indication that it wasn't a completely popular transition and the cabin might refer to Camp David - though Nixon's approval rating at the time was probably below 20%.

I'm pleasantly encouraged by Rodgers, especially since I watched only FJ from Monday. As noted, he's a bit of a sleep-aide. The big question is how much he improved on the second day of taping, because, since he's an NFL quarterback, he would have studied the film from day one like his life depended on it.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

This Is Kirk! wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:48 pm
floridagator wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:24 pm
It couldn't have been sweltering from the climate. They had a roaring fire going in the fireplace. When FDR stroked out, he was thrust forward into the fireplace and his head was roasted like a peanut.
That's a mental image I could live without.
I don't believe it's true, either. FDR wasn't alone when he was stricken. His portrait was being painted at the time.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

davey wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:59 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:57 pm
I disagree. As I point out in my earlier posts, even when referring to "a plane", one does not naturally refer to "a cabin" on the plane, as though it has more than one. I believe the sentence is clumsily written and "a cabin" should have been revised to say "the cabin".
You should google the expression "first class cabin." Air Force One is divided into sections as well.
Fair enough. Even in that case I don't think anyone would naturally speak of being in "a cabin". Do you? I think you would speak of being in "the first class cabin" or, if you don't know which one and there's more than one, "an airplane cabin". Never just "a cabin", even if it's been established that the location is on an airplane.

People are free to disprove that by finding examples to support Caro's usage. Go through Google books and find one with a lot of airplane settings and see whether the phrase "a cabin" occurs in reference to that part of an airplane. All I ask is that if anyone attempts this, please report back that you couldn't find a single example if that turns out to be the case.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:16 pm
davey wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:59 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:57 pm
I disagree. As I point out in my earlier posts, even when referring to "a plane", one does not naturally refer to "a cabin" on the plane, as though it has more than one. I believe the sentence is clumsily written and "a cabin" should have been revised to say "the cabin".
You should google the expression "first class cabin." Air Force One is divided into sections as well.
Fair enough. Even in that case I don't think anyone would naturally speak of being in "a cabin". Do you? I think you would speak of being in "the first class cabin" or, if you don't know which one and there's more than one, "an airplane cabin". Never just "a cabin", even if it's been established that the location is on an airplane.

People are free to disprove that by finding examples to support Caro's usage. Go through Google books and find one with a lot of airplane settings and see whether the phrase "a cabin" occurs in reference to that part of an airplane. All I ask is that if anyone attempts this, please report back that you couldn't find a single example if that turns out to be the case.
You're getting a bit near TPH level with this. You missed a Final, it's not the end of the world, you don't have to make a federal case out of it in attempting to justify why you missed it and how anyone could possibly get it right with this horrifying "a" vs "the" word choice. One post about it felt quite sufficient, now we're at 11 and counting.

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Re: Tuesday, April 6, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by floridagator »

davey wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:06 pm
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:48 pm
floridagator wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:24 pm
It couldn't have been sweltering from the climate. They had a roaring fire going in the fireplace. When FDR stroked out, he was thrust forward into the fireplace and his head was roasted like a peanut.
That's a mental image I could live without.
I don't believe it's true, either. FDR wasn't alone when he was stricken. His portrait was being painted at the time.
He wasn't alone at The Retreat. He was alone in the room at the time.
I'd rather cuddle then have sex. If you're into grammar, you'll understand.

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