Right now I'm gathering information and evaluating the sources. If it's not possible to do that without people leveling false accusations, then I guess I'll bow out of the conversation without learning what I need to know.jeff6286 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:24 pmOnly you’re clearly not doing it unconsciously because we’re sitting here having the conversation and it’s been made known to you multiple times and yet you’re just going to keep right on saying you don’t see a problem with the word?opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:20 pmDo they believe that Americans who use the demonym are consciously using it in a derogatory manner? Or do they think most of us are unconsciously using a term that they have come to regard as a racial slur? How long have they felt this way? Would their parents or grandparents have self-identified as gypsy?brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:05 pmI have American friends of Roma descent who strongly disagree. When you know better, you do better.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:55 am I really don't think "gypsy" is a slur in American English.
Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
Last edited by opusthepenguin on Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
So we're still leaving room for the possibility that he's lying about his reasons for flashing the sign and he's playing us? I suppose that's possible.This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:18 pmI'm happy he wrote a more forceful repudiation of white supremacy, but I think it's also worth pointing out that the Three Percenters claim to not be a white supremacist organization, so his statement doesn't preclude involvement with that group.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:18 pm But I don't think he's obligated to do anything since he did nothing wrong. And he's already paid dearly by having to face a savage mob with torches and pitchforks intent on lynching him before hearing what he had to say. Every single person who publicly accused him should post an equally forceful public apology. Maybe those people can donate to ADL or BLM as a sign of contrition. I don't think Kelly needs to.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
In general they understand that not everyone has heard so they will educate once... but if you dig in your heels they feel just fine writing you off as an intentional bigot. Their parents call themselves Roma and are also upset by the term g**** and the term for ripping people off based on it. I think their grandparents may have used g****... and so did Hitler when he was rounding them up and exterminating them.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:20 pmDo they believe that Americans who use the demonym are consciously using it in a derogatory manner? Or do they think most of us are unconsciously using a term that they have come to regard as a racial slur? How long have they felt this way? Would their parents or grandparents have self-identified as gypsy?brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:05 pmI have American friends of Roma descent who strongly disagree. When you know better, you do better.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:55 am I really don't think "gypsy" is a slur in American English.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
Of course there's that possibility. I'll take him at his word, however, unless there's some other evidence to the contrary. Carry on.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:29 pmSo we're still leaving room for the possibility that he's lying about his reasons for flashing the sign and he's playing us? I suppose that's possible.This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:18 pmI'm happy he wrote a more forceful repudiation of white supremacy, but I think it's also worth pointing out that the Three Percenters claim to not be a white supremacist organization, so his statement doesn't preclude involvement with that group.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:18 pm But I don't think he's obligated to do anything since he did nothing wrong. And he's already paid dearly by having to face a savage mob with torches and pitchforks intent on lynching him before hearing what he had to say. Every single person who publicly accused him should post an equally forceful public apology. Maybe those people can donate to ADL or BLM as a sign of contrition. I don't think Kelly needs to.
P.S. I was wrong that his statement doesn't preclude involvement with the aforementioned group since he said the gesture only indicated three wins and nothing more, so I apologize for that inaccuracy.
Last edited by This Is Kirk! on Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
False accusations? What?opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:28 pmRight now I'm gathering information and evaluating the sources. If it's not possible to do that without people leveling false accusations, then I guess I'll bow out of the conversation without learning what I need to know.jeff6286 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:24 pmOnly you’re clearly not doing it unconsciously because we’re sitting here having the conversation and it’s been made known to you multiple times and yet you’re just going to keep right on saying you don’t see a problem with the word?opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:20 pmDo they believe that Americans who use the demonym are consciously using it in a derogatory manner? Or do they think most of us are unconsciously using a term that they have come to regard as a racial slur? How long have they felt this way? Would their parents or grandparents have self-identified as gypsy?brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:05 pmI have American friends of Roma descent who strongly disagree. When you know better, you do better.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:55 am I really don't think "gypsy" is a slur in American English.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
I'm aware. It's just never occurred to me to spend my time googling obscure extremist hate groups.This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:20 pmThere's this thing called Google, Myron.MinnesotaMyron wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:19 pmYou sure know a lot about the 3 Percenters. Something you want to tell us all?This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:18 pmI'm happy he wrote a more forceful repudiation of white supremacy, but I think it's also worth pointing out that the Three Percenters claim to not be a white supremacist organization, so his statement doesn't preclude involvement with that group.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:18 pm But I don't think he's obligated to do anything since he did nothing wrong. And he's already paid dearly by having to face a savage mob with torches and pitchforks intent on lynching him before hearing what he had to say. Every single person who publicly accused him should post an equally forceful public apology. Maybe those people can donate to ADL or BLM as a sign of contrition. I don't think Kelly needs to.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
I've always known--well not always, but for a long time--that the verb "gyp" is a slur and have avoided using it. ("Jew" as a verb has been used similarly, but that hasn't led to a change in the demonym, Hitler's usage notwithstanding.) Do you know if the verb form--which, again, I definitely recognize as a slur--was the main reason for switching to Roma and declaring the former term to be off-limits? Obviously (I hope, though given the temperature of this thread, who knows?) if I had Roma friends who asked me not to use the term around them, I would comply. And that would probably affect my usage when not around them as well.brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:32 pmIn general they understand that not everyone has heard so they will educate once... but if you dig in your heels they feel just fine writing you off as an intentional bigot. Their parents call themselves Roma and are also upset by the term g**** and the term for ripping people off based on it. I think their grandparents may have used g****... and so did Hitler when he was rounding them up and exterminating them.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:20 pmDo they believe that Americans who use the demonym are consciously using it in a derogatory manner? Or do they think most of us are unconsciously using a term that they have come to regard as a racial slur? How long have they felt this way? Would their parents or grandparents have self-identified as gypsy?brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:05 pmI have American friends of Roma descent who strongly disagree. When you know better, you do better.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:55 am I really don't think "gypsy" is a slur in American English.
Anyway, I understand what you're saying and I'll give this some thought. I'm probably just getting my back up because I'm feeling old and tired of all the rule changes and the accusations that result when someone misses one of them. As I continue to age, I expect to miss more and more of them and eventually to be written off as a bigot or a fool. Of the two, I'm hoping for fool, but people aren't that charitable. I'm just tired. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to constantly have to prove my non-racist credentials and still get the side eye half the time anyway.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
Unfortunately not as obscure as they should be.MinnesotaMyron wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:42 pmI'm aware. It's just never occurred to me to spend my time googling obscure extremist hate groups.This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:20 pmThere's this thing called Google, Myron.MinnesotaMyron wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:19 pmYou sure know a lot about the 3 Percenters. Something you want to tell us all?This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:18 pmI'm happy he wrote a more forceful repudiation of white supremacy, but I think it's also worth pointing out that the Three Percenters claim to not be a white supremacist organization, so his statement doesn't preclude involvement with that group.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:18 pm But I don't think he's obligated to do anything since he did nothing wrong. And he's already paid dearly by having to face a savage mob with torches and pitchforks intent on lynching him before hearing what he had to say. Every single person who publicly accused him should post an equally forceful public apology. Maybe those people can donate to ADL or BLM as a sign of contrition. I don't think Kelly needs to.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
Fair enough. I'm bored with this folly, and I appreciate that you apologized upthread. Obviously neither you nor I are sympathetic to the cause of any hate group or any group that would use threats and violence to advance their cause.This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:53 pmUnfortunately not as obscure as they should be.MinnesotaMyron wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:42 pmI'm aware. It's just never occurred to me to spend my time googling obscure extremist hate groups.This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:20 pmThere's this thing called Google, Myron.MinnesotaMyron wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:19 pmYou sure know a lot about the 3 Percenters. Something you want to tell us all?This Is Kirk! wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:18 pm
I'm happy he wrote a more forceful repudiation of white supremacy, but I think it's also worth pointing out that the Three Percenters claim to not be a white supremacist organization, so his statement doesn't preclude involvement with that group.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
Agreed and at this point there's no point in belaboring it further. I just sent you a PM, by the way.MinnesotaMyron wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:59 pm Fair enough. I'm bored with this folly, and I appreciate that you apologized upthread. Obviously neither you nor I are sympathetic to the cause of any hate group or any group that would use threats and violence to advance their cause.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
Your question on the chronology of the shift in acceptable usage is interesting and I do not know the answer. I do not interact with the one particular friend I discussed this with in depth in the way I once did, so I'm not sure when I will have an opportunity to pick her brain on that piece of things. On the parallel to the usage of Jew as a verb, etc... I will say that it has been made quite clear to me that most Jewish people are very offended by being called "a Jew", in most contexts. You can say "Bill is Jewish" but not "Bill is a Jew."opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:52 pmI've always known--well not always, but for a long time--that the verb "gyp" is a slur and have avoided using it. ("Jew" as a verb has been used similarly, but that hasn't led to a change in the demonym, Hitler's usage notwithstanding.) Do you know if the verb form--which, again, I definitely recognize as a slur--was the main reason for switching to Roma and declaring the former term to be off-limits? Obviously (I hope, though given the temperature of this thread, who knows?) if I had Roma friends who asked me not to use the term around them, I would comply. And that would probably affect my usage when not around them as well.brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:32 pmIn general they understand that not everyone has heard so they will educate once... but if you dig in your heels they feel just fine writing you off as an intentional bigot. Their parents call themselves Roma and are also upset by the term g**** and the term for ripping people off based on it. I think their grandparents may have used g****... and so did Hitler when he was rounding them up and exterminating them.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:20 pmDo they believe that Americans who use the demonym are consciously using it in a derogatory manner? Or do they think most of us are unconsciously using a term that they have come to regard as a racial slur? How long have they felt this way? Would their parents or grandparents have self-identified as gypsy?brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:05 pmI have American friends of Roma descent who strongly disagree. When you know better, you do better.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:55 am I really don't think "gypsy" is a slur in American English.
Anyway, I understand what you're saying and I'll give this some thought. I'm probably just getting my back up because I'm feeling old and tired of all the rule changes and the accusations that result when someone misses one of them. As I continue to age, I expect to miss more and more of them and eventually to be written off as a bigot or a fool. Of the two, I'm hoping for fool, but people aren't that charitable. I'm just tired. I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to constantly have to prove my non-racist credentials and still get the side eye half the time anyway.
Also, I hate to tell you, but it's always going to be hard to label you a fool, so...
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
So "bigot" it is, eh? I'll just have to keep at the fool angle until I convince everyone otherwise.brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:28 pm Your question on the chronology of the shift in acceptable usage is interesting and I do not know the answer. I do not interact with the one particular friend I discussed this with in depth in the way I once did, so I'm not sure when I will have an opportunity to pick her brain on that piece of things. On the parallel to the usage of Jew as a verb, etc... I will say that it has been made quite clear to me that most Jewish people are very offended by being called "a Jew", in most contexts. You can say "Bill is Jewish" but not "Bill is a Jew."
Also, I hate to tell you, but it's always going to be hard to label you a fool, so...
I don't know that anyone's ever told me in so many words that "Jew" is offensive, but "Jewish" isn't. But I've definitely noticed that I feel comfortable using the adjective and awkward using the noun. It's an odd thing. My Jewish friends by and large seem to be comfortable describing themselves as Jews. But it definitely feels like a description they're freer to use than I am.
Several years back I found out via some genealogical research that I'm part Jewish. My great-grandfather on my mother's father's side was a Lithuanian Jew(ish person) who converted to Catholicism. So I definitely lost my rights to membership in "the tribe" a few generations back. But ethnically, that makes me, what? 1/8th Jewish? Or 1/16 if we consider that my great-grandfather gave it up.
I'm also 3/16 Polish. I remember my grandfather, via whom I received that ethnicity, had a big book of Polack jokes and thought they were hilarious.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
But obviously no one has to explain the difference between what I can say about my people and what you can, vice versa.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:50 pmSo "bigot" it is, eh? I'll just have to keep at the fool angle until I convince everyone otherwise.brick wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:28 pm Your question on the chronology of the shift in acceptable usage is interesting and I do not know the answer. I do not interact with the one particular friend I discussed this with in depth in the way I once did, so I'm not sure when I will have an opportunity to pick her brain on that piece of things. On the parallel to the usage of Jew as a verb, etc... I will say that it has been made quite clear to me that most Jewish people are very offended by being called "a Jew", in most contexts. You can say "Bill is Jewish" but not "Bill is a Jew."
Also, I hate to tell you, but it's always going to be hard to label you a fool, so...
I don't know that anyone's ever told me in so many words that "Jew" is offensive, but "Jewish" isn't. But I've definitely noticed that I feel comfortable using the adjective and awkward using the noun. It's an odd thing. My Jewish friends by and large seem to be comfortable describing themselves as Jews. But it definitely feels like a description they're freer to use than I am.
Several years back I found out via some genealogical research that I'm part Jewish. My great-grandfather on my mother's father's side was a Lithuanian Jew(ish person) who converted to Catholicism. So I definitely lost my rights to membership in "the tribe" a few generations back. But ethnically, that makes me, what? 1/8th Jewish? Or 1/16 if we consider that my great-grandfather gave it up.
I'm also 3/16 Polish. I remember my grandfather, via whom I received that ethnicity, had a big book of Polack jokes and thought they were hilarious.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
I don't know any gentile jokes, but I know plenty of Irish jokes and I can go there any time I like. Most of us have a well or two we can draw from if we choose.opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:43 pmDefinitely. It's kind of sad, though, since I only know 3 Gentile jokes. I feel as though my community is under-served.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
I was trying to find the right place for this but intros and hosting didn't seem to be the right one. And I don't think search is going to help me, so pardon my misplacement.
I noticed earlier this week, since I'm from Boston, that Johnny Gilbert was mispronouncing Winthrop, although Anderson wasn't. I'm sure Johnny has a bigger job than I think he does, but does anybody tell him how to pronounce these obscure Town names?
I come from the land of Winthrop, Peabody, Haverhill, and Billerica, not to mention loads of Indian names, and Waltham which people don't seem to know how to pronounce any better than people know how to pronounce Bangor. I admit there's a trick to those. The people in Bangor even got somebody to write a song about how to pronounce it and you can watch it on YouTube.
I know when I was a teenager we knew the new DJs because they couldn't pronounce Billerica and Haverhill.
Anyway, does anybody know how this is dealt with? It's a minor thing, unless you're from there. I'm from Westwood, so that's pretty simple.
And I apologize if I put this in the wrong thread.
I threw in some paragraph breaks to make this a little more readable. Hopefully they ended up where I meant them to
I noticed earlier this week, since I'm from Boston, that Johnny Gilbert was mispronouncing Winthrop, although Anderson wasn't. I'm sure Johnny has a bigger job than I think he does, but does anybody tell him how to pronounce these obscure Town names?
I come from the land of Winthrop, Peabody, Haverhill, and Billerica, not to mention loads of Indian names, and Waltham which people don't seem to know how to pronounce any better than people know how to pronounce Bangor. I admit there's a trick to those. The people in Bangor even got somebody to write a song about how to pronounce it and you can watch it on YouTube.
I know when I was a teenager we knew the new DJs because they couldn't pronounce Billerica and Haverhill.
Anyway, does anybody know how this is dealt with? It's a minor thing, unless you're from there. I'm from Westwood, so that's pretty simple.
And I apologize if I put this in the wrong thread.
I threw in some paragraph breaks to make this a little more readable. Hopefully they ended up where I meant them to
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
I'd rather cuddle then have sex. If you're into grammar, you'll understand.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
pamelajaye wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:59 pm I noticed earlier this week, since I'm from Boston, that Johnny Gilbert was mispronouncing Winthrop, although Anderson wasn't. I'm sure Johnny has a bigger job than I think he does, but does anybody tell him how to pronounce these obscure Town names?
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
And what's your point? That many people do offensive things? Thank you. Yes they do. That 21 years ago even more people said and did offensive things openly and publicly than they do now? I'm not sure. But gosh, thanks for your contribution. You've really elevated the level of discourse.
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Re: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)
Aloha shirts? Wait, what? That's a bad thing now?opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:57 pmI don't think it's one thing or the other for me. It's just my understanding. It would appear to be the understanding of TPTB at Jeopardy at this point as well since they're willing to accept "gypsy" as a correct response. If someone wants to convince me (and them) that that this should change, I'm open to that. I'm open to not using the OK symbol anymore as well and not wearing my aloha shirts. But it's going to take more than a few declarative statements to make me change.jeff6286 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:51 pmWell that’s great for you, I guess?opusthepenguin wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 11:55 am I really don't think "gypsy" is a slur in American English.
You're already convinced. That's great for you, I guess?
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