Rename the "lock-tie"?

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Robert K S
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Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Robert K S »

It's been pointed out that since the no-ties-allowed rule change, "lock-tie" as a wagering scenario is a misnomer, since the first-place player going into Final Jeopardy! isn't locked into anything.

Suggestions for replacements?

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Ironhorse »

Although he never got to participate it, he arguably played a role in the rule change, so why not name it after Arthur Chu?
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Volante »

The Cravat Dilemma

(Since the player in first has to decide if they want to keep the tie and face off in the breaker round or try for the conversion and win it outright)
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by MattKnowles »

I think it should stay lock-tie.

There is still a tie at the end of FJ.
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Robert K S
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Robert K S »

MattKnowles wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:40 pm
I think it should stay lock-tie.

There is still a tie at the end of FJ.
Can you help me understand this a little better? It's not the "tie" part that's in issue, but the "lock" part.

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by MattKnowles »

Robert K S wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:44 pm
MattKnowles wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:40 pm
I think it should stay lock-tie.

There is still a tie at the end of FJ.
Can you help me understand this a little better? It's not the "tie" part that's in issue, but the "lock" part.
You’re still locked into a tie at the end of FJ. You’re no longer locked into playing the next day.

I think you’re viewing it as “lock-tie is a scenario where the leader should bet 0 to guarantee a spot in tomorrow’s game.” I’m viewing it as “lock-tie is a scenario where the leader has twice the second place score.” I think both interpretations are valid. Under your interpretation we should introduce a new term to capture the new scenario. Under my interpretation the recommended action for a lock-tie would change because the rules have been updated.

Another way to look at it: do scenarios cover the end of the game or do they cover the end of FJ? Either is a reasonable interpretation.
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Golf »

Lock-tiebreaker

This is accurate and simple yet indicates the difference from when ties were allowed.

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Sherm »

Golf wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Lock-tiebreaker

This is accurate and simple yet indicates the difference from when ties were allowed.
Nah, Chu Dilemma just sounds better. Anything with dilemma sounds better, or something similar. You have to make it sound like the leader is up against something. I also like:

The Chu Quandary
The Chu Predicament
The Chu Conundrum: Threat Level Midnight

The last of which would be a good movie title if Arthur Chu were to make a movie while appearing on the Office.

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by opusthepenguin »

Sherm wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:11 pm
Golf wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Lock-tiebreaker

This is accurate and simple yet indicates the difference from when ties were allowed.
Nah, Chu Dilemma just sounds better. Anything with dilemma sounds better, or something similar. You have to make it sound like the leader is up against something. I also like:

The Chu Quandary
The Chu Predicament
The Chu Conundrum: Threat Level Midnight

The last of which would be a good movie title if Arthur Chu were to make a movie while appearing on the Office.
The Chu Choice or
The Chu-ser

Because you have to choose whether to leave room for the tiebreaker or go for an automatic win with the attached risk of automatic loss.

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by alietr »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:22 pm
Sherm wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:11 pm
Golf wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Lock-tiebreaker

This is accurate and simple yet indicates the difference from when ties were allowed.
Nah, Chu Dilemma just sounds better. Anything with dilemma sounds better, or something similar. You have to make it sound like the leader is up against something. I also like:

The Chu Quandary
The Chu Predicament
The Chu Conundrum: Threat Level Midnight

The last of which would be a good movie title if Arthur Chu were to make a movie while appearing on the Office.
The Chu Choice or
The Chu-ser

Because you have to choose whether to leave room for the tiebreaker or go for an automatic win with the attached risk of automatic loss.
I'm trying to figure out how to make "Chu Backer" fit.

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Volante »

MattKnowles wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:56 pm
You’re still locked into a tie at the end of FJ. You’re no longer locked into playing the next day.
Except you're not locked into a tie because it could be statistically beneficial for you to go outright for the win in FJ and avoid the tiebreaker round entirely.
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Volante »

alietr wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:26 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:22 pm
Sherm wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:11 pm
Golf wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Lock-tiebreaker

This is accurate and simple yet indicates the difference from when ties were allowed.
Nah, Chu Dilemma just sounds better. Anything with dilemma sounds better, or something similar. You have to make it sound like the leader is up against something. I also like:

The Chu Quandary
The Chu Predicament
The Chu Conundrum: Threat Level Midnight

The last of which would be a good movie title if Arthur Chu were to make a movie while appearing on the Office.
The Chu Choice or
The Chu-ser

Because you have to choose whether to leave room for the tiebreaker or go for an automatic win with the attached risk of automatic loss.
I'm trying to figure out how to make "Chu Backer" fit.
These puns must, ah, quit.
The best thing that Neil Armstrong ever did, was to let us all imagine we were him.
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by MattKnowles »

Volante wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:37 pm
MattKnowles wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:56 pm
You’re still locked into a tie at the end of FJ. You’re no longer locked into playing the next day.
Except you're not locked into a tie because it could be statistically beneficial for you to go outright for the win in FJ and avoid the tiebreaker round entirely.
You could still lose from a lock game depending on what you wager. You’re locked into the opportunity for a tie.
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Robert K S »

MattKnowles wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:42 pm
Volante wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:37 pm
MattKnowles wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:56 pm
You’re still locked into a tie at the end of FJ. You’re no longer locked into playing the next day.
Except you're not locked into a tie because it could be statistically beneficial for you to go outright for the win in FJ and avoid the tiebreaker round entirely.
You could still lose from a lock game depending on what you wager. You’re locked into the opportunity for a tie.
I was about to offer the counterpoint that wagering out of a lock for a tie is not universally agreed to be suboptimal, whereas wagering out of a lock is always suboptimal, but then I thought of Skyler Hornbeck. Of course, that particular game was without the opportunity to return for more.

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Volante
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by Volante »

MattKnowles wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:42 pm
Volante wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:37 pm
MattKnowles wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:56 pm
You’re still locked into a tie at the end of FJ. You’re no longer locked into playing the next day.
Except you're not locked into a tie because it could be statistically beneficial for you to go outright for the win in FJ and avoid the tiebreaker round entirely.
You could still lose from a lock game depending on what you wager. You’re locked into the opportunity for a tie.
Well, for a tiebreaker. Which seems like a silly thing to be a 'lock' for since you can still lose.

Calling something a 'lock' only seems appropriate if it involves coming back the next day, because that's all that matters. Anything less is an AFC Finalist banner.
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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by jeff6286 »

Call it a Hamle(t). To be(t) or not to be(t).

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by seaborgium »

I say call it what J! Archive has been calling it when it occurs in tournaments. I.e., my answer to the thread title is "no."

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by mjhunt »

seaborgium wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:50 pm
I say call it what J! Archive has been calling it when it occurs in tournaments. I.e., my answer to the thread title is "no."
I personally would never have used "lock-tie" in a tournament context myself, for the reasons others have said before.

Then again, tournaments are only a small percentage of games, so maybe it was not worth inventing a new term when ties were allowed the vast majority of games. But, in my view, since no games allow ties now, it would be reasonable to rename it. But, it is their decision.

For me, I am content with writing "lock-tie" the way I do, in quotes. I have been doing that for a reason. Maybe it's psychological, but I just can't write it without. I am sorry.

Or maybe I should just say "1st equals exactly twice second" or something like that.

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by OrangeSAM »

mjhunt wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:16 pm
Or maybe I should just say "1st equals exactly twice second" or something like that.
Which can be shortened to "double-up".
OCSam

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Re: Rename the "lock-tie"?

Post by seaborgium »

If it were to be renamed, I'd suggest "lock/crush." It's the cusp between lock territory and crush territory. Like a lock, first can wager such that second cannot overtake first in FJ. Like a crush, first can wager to exceed second's maximum score without risking a TS loss.

Or make it like the other fractions and call it the "one-half scenario."

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