Difficulty Over Time

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DysonSphere
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Difficulty Over Time

Post by DysonSphere »

Treading water in the contestant pool, trying to be ready for the call, I'm watching a lot of older J! episodes in addition to a new episode every night. Most of the episodes I'm watching on YouTube come from the late 80s, 90s, or very early 00's. My subjective assessment is that the show has gotten more difficult over time, and I'm interested if others agree.

In older episodes, most of the Single round clues were reliably easy, and a first or second row clue was almost always trivially so ("cats say meow" kind of a deal). In newer episodes, it seems like there are difficult clues that require extrapolation mixed into even the first and second row clues in the Single round. Another example is in older episodes, clues about cities would almost always ask for the capital. In newer episodes, clues often ask for lesser known regions of other countries or cities not the capital.

However, as in most sports, the average level of the players also seems to be higher, presumably due to easier access to information, the benefit of experience with the show, and the prevalence of study guides. It also seems like in older episodes, being familiar with present-day (of that era) pop culture was helpful but not an absolute necessity to compete. Today if you are not familiar with most of the popular television and music of the year we are in right now, you are essentially sunk. This week in particular, it seemed like there were dozens of clues about obscure present-day television series.

Do people agree with my assessment? I'm fully open to being disagreed with or corrected with evidence. This is just my impression as someone watching the old and the new every day, side by side.
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DBear
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by DBear »

It is due to an over-reliance on Pop Culture categories, with far more to keep track of today. Don't get me started on all the random Netflix shows they ask about. :x
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by MattKnowles »

I have the opposite viewpoint and I think the older shows were harder and the episodes today are easier.

I also don’t think the tv shows they’re selecting are obscure or random.

How many are you getting right on old shows versus new shows? I’m probably doing something like 40R on old shows and 45R on new shows.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

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MattKnowles wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:29 pm I have the opposite viewpoint...How many are you getting right on old shows versus new shows? I’m probably doing something like 40R on old shows and 45R on new shows.
Interesting question. I might begin tracking because I wonder if my perception matches the reality. In the old episodes, I would estimate I know at least 3/4 of the answers. In the newer episodes, maybe a bit less than 3/4. It's more that in the newer episodes there will be entire categories (usually present-year pop culture) in which I can get completely shut out. This never happens in the older episodes. In the newer episodes, though, I almost always get FJ correct. Anecdotally, I feel like I am at the same level as the contestants and clues in the old Tournament of Champions episodes. When I watch new Tournament of Champions episodes, I feel like the contestants and clues are on a completely different level.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by Bamaman »

DysonSphere wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:48 pm
MattKnowles wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:29 pm I have the opposite viewpoint...How many are you getting right on old shows versus new shows? I’m probably doing something like 40R on old shows and 45R on new shows.
Interesting question. I might begin tracking because I wonder if my perception matches the reality. In the old episodes, I would estimate I know at least 3/4 of the answers. In the newer episodes, maybe a bit less than 3/4. It's more that in the newer episodes there will be entire categories (usually present-year pop culture) in which I can get completely shut out. This never happens in the older episodes. In the newer episodes, though, I almost always get FJ correct. Anecdotally, I feel like I am at the same level as the contestants and clues in the old Tournament of Champions episodes. When I watch new Tournament of Champions episodes, I feel like the contestants and clues are on a completely different level.
How old are you? I suspect I did quite well on TV trivia watching the old episodes when they aired. We only had three major networks in 1984 and very little original programming on cable. It wasn’t hard to be aware of nearly all the shows on TV that lasted more than a season. People who never saw a single episode of Dallas knew J.R. Ewing.

Today there are as many (if not more) viewing options in one day than we had in entire week in 1984. You really have to make an effort to keep up with all the shows.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by DysonSphere »

Bamaman wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:26 pm
DysonSphere wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:48 pm
MattKnowles wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:29 pm I have the opposite viewpoint...How many are you getting right on old shows versus new shows? I’m probably doing something like 40R on old shows and 45R on new shows.
Interesting question. I might begin tracking because I wonder if my perception matches the reality. In the old episodes, I would estimate I know at least 3/4 of the answers. In the newer episodes, maybe a bit less than 3/4. It's more that in the newer episodes there will be entire categories (usually present-year pop culture) in which I can get completely shut out. This never happens in the older episodes. In the newer episodes, though, I almost always get FJ correct. Anecdotally, I feel like I am at the same level as the contestants and clues in the old Tournament of Champions episodes. When I watch new Tournament of Champions episodes, I feel like the contestants and clues are on a completely different level.
How old are you? I suspect I did quite well on TV trivia watching the old episodes when they aired. We only had three major networks in 1984 and very little original programming on cable. It wasn’t hard to be aware of nearly all the shows on TV that lasted more than a season. People who never saw a single episode of Dallas knew J.R. Ewing.

Today there are as many (if not more) viewing options in one day than we had in entire week in 1984. You really have to make an effort to keep up with all the shows.
I'm 36. I agree, growing up in the 90s I felt like I was aware of all the current TV shows (Ally McBeal, the Practice, etc.) and most of the old ones too thanks to Nick at Night (Bewitched, Leave it to Beaver, I dream of Jeannie). Today I feel like I'm not even aware of half of the shows people watch despite making a concerted effort to keep up for J! purposes. They are so here today gone tomorrow.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by Robert K S »

We had extensive debates about J! difficulty over time back on the old Sony boards. Those discussions are wiped from existence, but during the course of them I did some scripting that tracked certain variables, like, IIRC, combined Coryat, over Archived games, to produce some rolling average plots that basically looked like noise. Back when I wrote the scripts we only had a few complete seasons to look at. Now we have many and the script would take too long to run. The main problem in trying to gauge difficulty of one game versus another, or one set of games versus another, is the lack of a control group. The players are always changing, and the number of players each game leaves too small a sample size from which to draw any objective conclusions. Add to that the fact that players' knowledge changes over time (what was common knowledge in 1986 would be trivia in 1999 and maybe arcana in 2021) and we are left with no way to gauge "difficulty" of a board without resorting to a lot of simplifying assumptions.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by Ironhorse »

I sympathize with those who say they don't know where to begin with sports, and in reality, sports is such a wide field that if you aren't interested to begin with, there are just too many holes to fill. That's where I am with TV, and with streaming options beginning to exist that I've never even heard of, it's even more pronounced. Maybe 10-15 years ago I could at least try to have a good sense of what shows are in prime time on the major networks.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

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Ironhorse wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:53 pm I sympathize with those who say they don't know where to begin with sports, and in reality, sports is such a wide field that if you aren't interested to begin with, there are just too many holes to fill. That's where I am with TV, and with streaming options beginning to exist that I've never even heard of, it's even more pronounced. Maybe 10-15 years ago I could at least try to have a good sense of what shows are in prime time on the major networks.
I'm with you on TV. Add that to the fact that whereas as recently as last season, TV categories were a couple times per week thing.... now there is one every day, almost guaranteed - and a lot of them in DJ. Makes it painful for those of use who aren't in the loop on all the latest things on Netflix that you have to scroll down four screens to ever even see.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by triviawayne »

Personal perspective of mine is games are about equal.

I’ve watched some old random episodes that YouTube fed me and kept track to compare because I had this question.

Not a huge sample size though.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

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Ironhorse wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:53 pm I sympathize with those who say they don't know where to begin with sports, and in reality, sports is such a wide field that if you aren't interested to begin with, there are just too many holes to fill.
I created a sports guide for myself for this reason. Sports will never be a good category for me, but at least now I can pick up a clue or two or three and control the bleeding.

Link is here if this also describes you and you want to use it. No guarantee as to accuracy:
https://www.docdroid.net/EUNyNY5/dans-2 ... guide-docx
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by Ironhorse »

DysonSphere wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:59 pm
Ironhorse wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:53 pm I sympathize with those who say they don't know where to begin with sports, and in reality, sports is such a wide field that if you aren't interested to begin with, there are just too many holes to fill.
I created a sports guide for myself for this reason. Sports will never be a good category for me, but at least now I can pick up a clue or two or three and control the bleeding.

Link is here if this also describes you and you want to use it. No guarantee as to accuracy:
https://www.docdroid.net/EUNyNY5/dans-2 ... guide-docx
One correction I'd offer (don't want it to cost you on the show!); Mark McQuire should be Mark McGwire.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by BrigadierSolo13 »

Ironhorse wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:15 pm
DysonSphere wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:59 pm
Ironhorse wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:53 pm I sympathize with those who say they don't know where to begin with sports, and in reality, sports is such a wide field that if you aren't interested to begin with, there are just too many holes to fill.
I created a sports guide for myself for this reason. Sports will never be a good category for me, but at least now I can pick up a clue or two or three and control the bleeding.

Link is here if this also describes you and you want to use it. No guarantee as to accuracy:
https://www.docdroid.net/EUNyNY5/dans-2 ... guide-docx
One correction I'd offer (don't want it to cost you on the show!); Mark McQuire should be Mark McGwire.
Also, LeBron James is definitely not the "Black Mamba", that would be Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by DysonSphere »

Thanks, will correct. Guide is very quick and dirty. Please download, correct, and adapt if helpful.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by MattKnowles »

I'm pretty sure that link gave me 100 viruses when I tried to download it. It makes popups that ask you to download and I didn't realize it was a pop-up and not the original link to download the study guide. Oh well.

Since I managed to download that guide, and it's only 4 pages, here's the text:
Spoiler
Football

Trophies:
• Vince Lombardi Trophy – Superbowl
• Heisman Trophy - Top player college football

Dynasties:
• Green Bay Packers
o Coach: Vince Lombardi
o Quarterback: Bart Starr
o Won first two Superbowls
• Dallas Cowboys (America’s Team)
o Coach: Tom Landry
o Quarterback: Roger Staubach
o Runningback: Emmitt Smith – all-time most yards
• San Francisco 49'ers
o Coach: Bill Walsh
o Quarterback: Joe Montana
o Wide Receiver: Jerry Rice – all-time leader
• Pittsburgh Steelers
o Coach: Chuck Noll
o Quarterback: Terry Bradshaw
o Defensive Line: Mean Joe Greene, part of the "Steel Curtain'.
o “Immaculate Reception” caught by Franco Harris
• New England Patriots
o Coach: Bill Belicheck
o Quarterback: Cam Newton (formerly Tom Brady)
o Rob Gronkowski known for partying.
o Won most Superbowls in NFL History
o Greatest comeback in history against Atlanta Falcons

Other famous individuals:
• Bo Jackson - Oakland Raiders
• Joe Namath (Broadway Joe) – NY Jets Quarterback
• Roger Goodell – commissioner
• Pete Rozelle – famous past commissioner
Baseball

Invented by Abner Doubleday in Cooperstown, NY (apocryphal).

Yankees (“Bronx Bombers”) Dynasty
• Famous players: Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, Derek Jeter, Mariano Riviera

Famous players:
• All-time hit leader: Pete Rose, known for gambling
• First black player: Jackie Robinson
• Hank Aaron (Hammerin Hank)
• Ty Cobb (the Georgia Peach)
• Willy Mays (the Say Hey Kid)
• Reggie Jackson (Mr. October)
• Sandy Koufax, Shoeless Joe Jackson
• Mark McQuire – Oakland A’s steroid era
• Ken Griffey Jr. (Junior, the Kid)
• Mike Trout – L.A. Angels, largest contract in history
Basketball

Invented by James Naismith in Springfield, MA.

Dynasties and famous teams:
• Boston Celtics
o Coach: Red Auerbach
o Bill Russell - won most championships of anyone in any sport.
o Larry Bird
• Chicago Bulls
o Coach: Phil Jackson
o Michael Jordan – took two years off to play baseball with White Sox
o Scotty Pippen
• Philadelphia 76'ers
o Wilt Chamberlin
o Julius Irving (“Dr. J”) famous for dunks
• Los Angeles Lakers (“Showtime”)
o Jerry West - NBA logo is based on him
o Magic Earvin Johnson
• Cleveland Cavaliers
o Lebron James (Black Mamba)
• Golden State Warriors
o Steph Curry
o Kevin Durant
• Houston Rockets
o Hakeem Olajuwon (the Dream)
• Utah Jazz
o Karl Malone (the Mailman)
• Toronto Raptors

Hockey

Trophy: Stanley Cup

Montreal Canadiens
• Maurice Richard (“Rocket”)
Edmonton Oilers
• Wayne Gretsky (“the Great One”)
Detroit Red Wings
• Gordie Howe (“Mr. Hockey”)
Washington Capitals
• Alexander Ovechkin (“The Great 8”)
Tennis

Trophy: Davis Cup

Current best players: Roger Federer (Switzerland) and Rafael Nadal (Spain)

Famous sister pair: Venus and Serena Williams

Swedish Tennis Player: Bjorn Borg

First Black Tennis players:
• Arthur Ashe
• Althea Gibson

Grand Slam: Wimbledon, Australian Open, French Open, and US Open

Battle of the sexes - Bobby Riggs and Billie Jean King
Golf

Famous players: Arnold Palmer, Bobby Jones, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods

Grand Slam: British Open, US Open, Masters, PGA
Soccer

Famous players: Ronaldo from Portugal (current). Pele from Brazil (past). David Beckham of England.
Auto Racing

Famous races: Indy 500, Daytona 500, NASCAR

Famous racers: Mario Andretti (Super Mario), Dale Earnhardt (the Intimidator), Dale Earnhardt Jr., Richard Petty
Horse Racing

Triple Crown: Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Belmont
• Secretariat
• Justify (2018) – Undefeated career, descended from Secretariat
Boxing

Famous boxers: Muhammed Ali, Smokin Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano, Joe Lewis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Sugar Ray Leonard, Jake LaMotta, Jack Johnson, Max Schmelling, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather; Wladamir Klitscho
UFC

Famous fighter: Conor McGregor
Olympics

Runners: Jesse Owens, Usain Bolt
Swimming: Michael Phelps
Gymnastics:
• Perfect score: Nadia Comaneci of Romania 1980; Mary Lou Retton of USA 1984
• Simone Biles of USA four gold medals 2016

Then followed by the major 4 leagues and their teams.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by TenPoundHammer »

I've spent years feeling like the game just gets tougher and tougher. Back when I first started keeping score around 2005 it felt like it was rare for me to miss the top box, but nowadays It seems like nearly every single episode manages to throw something at $200 that doesn't ring even the faintest of bells for me. (And sometimes, for you either. I still remember one $200 clue polling 4% here.)

Sometimes it does seem like they're finding completely basic facts that I"ve never managed to internalize (e.g., "Ring" being the brand of a doorbell), or something I only discover a few days later (e.g. the one time they had a clue on Lucifer less than a week before a friend recommended that I watch it). Sometimes it's my goldfish brain NHOI-ing some random fact for the 600th time. Most of it is just me being unable to get out of my own way combined with not knowing how to take a miss in stride.

But whatever it is, it's resulted in extremely inconsistent Coryats and so much frustration that I've just given up entirely.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

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Semi-random.example. i watched this old episode on my walk tonight and I got 42-43 clues correct with three additional clues not revealed. Only 40 correct for me on the most recent (Friday's) episode with all clues revealed.

Just one data point, but subjectively, it seemed like some of the clues were so easy nobody could possibly get them wrong and they would never be asked today. Seems like there aren't as many cash building "gimmes" anymore.

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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by davey »

DysonSphere wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:08 pm This week in particular, it seemed like there were dozens of clues about obscure present-day television series.

Do people agree with my assessment? I'm fully open to being disagreed with or corrected with evidence. This is just my impression as someone watching the old and the new every day, side by side.
Here's some evidence. This past week, I found 3 categories largely about TV, 14 clues. One clue required us to identify Josh Hartnett, whom you might call obscure but who was once an up-and-coming movie star. If you knew him from that, you didn't have to recognize his TV show. Another clue was about The Boys. I won't argue if you call that obscure. It's a streaming show (the only one in these clues), I've never watched it, I didn't get it (Matt did), but I've read enough about it to know that the clue's "ethically challenged superheroes" is a good description.
Another clue was about The Sopranos. We had to identify Edie Falco.
The other 11 clues this week were all about multi-season network shows, not recent obscurities. Most of them are off the air and have certainly been called "classics" by someone or other. They included E.R., Big Bang Theory, Fresh Prince of Bel Air...
Friday a week ago had a category on cop shows. They were all long-running network hits. The hardest one (because it's not the '80s anymore) was probably Hill Street Blues.
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Re: Difficulty Over Time

Post by davey »

DysonSphere wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:04 pm Semi-random.example. i watched this old episode on my walk tonight and I got 42-43 clues correct with three additional clues not revealed. Only 40 correct for me on the most recent (Friday's) episode with all clues revealed.

Just one data point, but subjectively, it seemed like some of the clues were so easy nobody could possibly get them wrong and they would never be asked today. Seems like there aren't as many cash building "gimmes" anymore.

I found many clues in this game moderately difficult. Royalty and Opera still intimidate contestants. The players and I both were challenged by Lumberjack Talk. The FJ is a problem if you don't recall the salient fact needed to solve it.
More interesting to me was the Daily Double in the top spot, and Alex scolding the contestant for betting low on it!
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