Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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ldfghjkl
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by ldfghjkl »

Does it seem to anyone else like the writers screwed up this clue?:
"I am free to be what I want to be, and think what I want to think," my 22-year-old dad told reporters after winning the heavyweight title in 1964. Soon after, he announced his conversion to this centuries-old faith and remained devoted to it and its teachings.
The conversion in question was to the (decades-old) Nation of Islam, not (centuries-old) Islam. They even show a picture of Ali wearing a Fruit of Islam cap. But far from remaining devoted to it, he later converted to Sunni Islam.

I mean, do the writers think they can take for granted that belonging to the Nation of Islam somehow counts as belonging to Islam? That seems completely indefensible.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

ldfghjkl wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:51 pm Does it seem to anyone else like the writers screwed up this clue?:
"I am free to be what I want to be, and think what I want to think," my 22-year-old dad told reporters after winning the heavyweight title in 1964. Soon after, he announced his conversion to this centuries-old faith and remained devoted to it and its teachings.
The conversion in question was to the (decades-old) Nation of Islam, not (centuries-old) Islam. They even show a picture of Ali wearing a Fruit of Islam cap. But far from remaining devoted to it, he later converted to Sunni Islam.

I mean, do the writers think they can take for granted that belonging to the Nation of Islam somehow counts as belonging to Islam? That seems completely indefensible.
If the Ken Burns documentary elides this fact (not likely) that's a problem. For the clue, obviously with his daughter's approval, to simplify his history doesn't bother me. "Centuries-old" indicates that "Nation of Islam" wouldn't have been accepted.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Xu Donym »

ldfghjkl wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:51 pm Does it seem to anyone else like the writers screwed up this clue?:
"I am free to be what I want to be, and think what I want to think," my 22-year-old dad told reporters after winning the heavyweight title in 1964. Soon after, he announced his conversion to this centuries-old faith and remained devoted to it and its teachings.
The conversion in question was to the (decades-old) Nation of Islam, not (centuries-old) Islam. They even show a picture of Ali wearing a Fruit of Islam cap. But far from remaining devoted to it, he later converted to Sunni Islam.

I mean, do the writers think they can take for granted that belonging to the Nation of Islam somehow counts as belonging to Islam? That seems completely indefensible.
I completely agree with you. It's obvious what the clue-writers wanted, but it's equally obvious that they were ignorant of or careless with the facts. "Remained devoted" rules out the NOI which Ali joined, and "centuries-old faith" rules out his conversion "soon after" the 1964 fight.

These kinds of sloppy clues seemed far less common when Harry Friedman was Executive Producer. Significantly, too, Alex Trebek was for years a final line of defense against such sloppiness, and without him things seem to have deteriorated further. Let's hope that the new EP and new hosts will reassert themselves as knowledgeable curators of clues, so clumsy efforts like this clue won't occur often if at all.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

Xu Donym wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:56 am These kinds of sloppy clues seemed far less common when Harry Friedman was Executive Producer. Significantly, too, Alex Trebek was for years a final line of defense against such sloppiness, and without him things seem to have deteriorated further. Let's hope that the new EP and new hosts will reassert themselves as knowledgeable curators of clues, so clumsy efforts like this clue won't occur often if at all.
This is a strong reason in favor of making Ken Jennings the new host. Barring that, he should be brought on as an official clue consultant who vets every clue before it gets put on a board. He is by far the most qualified human being on the planet for this job.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

Xu Donym wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:56 am
ldfghjkl wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:51 pm Does it seem to anyone else like the writers screwed up this clue?:
"I am free to be what I want to be, and think what I want to think," my 22-year-old dad told reporters after winning the heavyweight title in 1964. Soon after, he announced his conversion to this centuries-old faith and remained devoted to it and its teachings.
The conversion in question was to the (decades-old) Nation of Islam, not (centuries-old) Islam. They even show a picture of Ali wearing a Fruit of Islam cap. But far from remaining devoted to it, he later converted to Sunni Islam.

I mean, do the writers think they can take for granted that belonging to the Nation of Islam somehow counts as belonging to Islam? That seems completely indefensible.
I completely agree with you. It's obvious what the clue-writers wanted, but it's equally obvious that they were ignorant of or careless with the facts. "Remained devoted" rules out the NOI which Ali joined, and "centuries-old faith" rules out his conversion "soon after" the 1964 fight.

These kinds of sloppy clues seemed far less common when Harry Friedman was Executive Producer. Significantly, too, Alex Trebek was for years a final line of defense against such sloppiness, and without him things seem to have deteriorated further. Let's hope that the new EP and new hosts will reassert themselves as knowledgeable curators of clues, so clumsy efforts like this clue won't occur often if at all.
Isn't it obvious that if the clue oversimplifies Ali's relationship with Islam, it's because that's the way his daughter prefers it? The clue accommodates the clue reader. It's a $200 clue and the intended response was clear from "centuries-old." J! doesn't want to be in the business of judging Ali's faith. Nation of Islam is part of Islam as Mormonism is part of Christianity.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Xu Donym »

davey wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:00 pm Isn't it obvious that if the clue oversimplifies Ali's relationship with Islam, it's because that's the way his daughter prefers it? The clue accommodates the clue reader. It's a $200 clue and the intended response was clear from "centuries-old." J! doesn't want to be in the business of judging Ali's faith. Nation of Islam is part of Islam as Mormonism is part of Christianity.
Well, isn't it obvious that the clue-writers could have written an item that would please Ali's daughter while also not falsifying history or creating a disagreement between 1.5 billion orthodox Muslims and a few hundred thousand NOI adherents? For example:
"I am free to be what I want to be, and think what I want to think," my 22-year-old dad told reporters after winning the heavyweight title in 1964. Soon after, he left the Christianity of his birth and began what would become a lifelong association with this centuries-old faith.
That's just one of many ways the clue could have been approached with greater accuracy. Skilled clue-writers would have understood that a term such as "conversion to" puts a much narrower pin on an answer, compared to phasing like the "association with" suggested above. The broader phrasing gets the desired response without compromising the facts. And I'm sure other posters here could improve nicely on my above suggestion.

But you are absolutely correct that the clue makes its desired answer clear by oversimplifying the history. If that's what Jeopardy! is now about, I mourn the change.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Volante »

Xu Donym wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:27 pm
davey wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:00 pm Isn't it obvious that if the clue oversimplifies Ali's relationship with Islam, it's because that's the way his daughter prefers it? The clue accommodates the clue reader. It's a $200 clue and the intended response was clear from "centuries-old." J! doesn't want to be in the business of judging Ali's faith. Nation of Islam is part of Islam as Mormonism is part of Christianity.
Well, isn't it obvious that the clue-writers could have written an item that would please Ali's daughter while also not falsifying history or creating a disagreement between 1.5 billion orthodox Muslims and a few hundred thousand NOI adherents? For example:
"I am free to be what I want to be, and think what I want to think," my 22-year-old dad told reporters after winning the heavyweight title in 1964. Soon after, he left the Christianity of his birth and began what would become a lifelong association with this centuries-old faith.
That's just one of many ways the clue could have been approached with greater accuracy. Skilled clue-writers would have understood that a term such as "conversion to" puts a much narrower pin on an answer, compared to phasing like the "association with" suggested above. The broader phrasing gets the desired response without compromising the facts. And I'm sure other posters here could improve nicely on my above suggestion.

But you are absolutely correct that the clue makes its desired answer clear by oversimplifying the history. If that's what Jeopardy! is now about, I mourn the change.
A counterargument, contestants were brought back due to poorly written clues in the era they were 'less sloppy'. I'd simply be careful about looking back fondly on the past without taking into account lens color.

Now, throwing my own advice out the window, I feel science clues have been regular targets of ire dating back to the Sony board.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

davey wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:00 pm Isn't it obvious that if the clue oversimplifies Ali's relationship with Islam, it's because that's the way his daughter prefers it? The clue accommodates the clue reader. It's a $200 clue and the intended response was clear from "centuries-old." J! doesn't want to be in the business of judging Ali's faith. Nation of Islam is part of Islam as Mormonism is part of Christianity.
So Nation of Islam considers itself to be part of Islam, but Islamists who are not part of Nation of Islam generally don't?
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

Xu Donym wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:27 pm
davey wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:00 pm Isn't it obvious that if the clue oversimplifies Ali's relationship with Islam, it's because that's the way his daughter prefers it? The clue accommodates the clue reader. It's a $200 clue and the intended response was clear from "centuries-old." J! doesn't want to be in the business of judging Ali's faith. Nation of Islam is part of Islam as Mormonism is part of Christianity.
Well, isn't it obvious that the clue-writers could have written an item that would please Ali's daughter while also not falsifying history or creating a disagreement between 1.5 billion orthodox Muslims and a few hundred thousand NOI adherents?
Has it created such a disagreement? I haven't seen the tweets, but I'd guess both groups embrace Ali...Now if the documentary soft-pedals Ali's time in the Nation, I expect we'll see tweets...but not from Muslims.
Xu Donym wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:27 pm
For example:
"I am free to be what I want to be, and think what I want to think," my 22-year-old dad told reporters after winning the heavyweight title in 1964. Soon after, he left the Christianity of his birth and began what would become a lifelong association with this centuries-old faith.
That's just one of many ways the clue could have been approached with greater accuracy. Skilled clue-writers would have understood that a term such as "conversion to" puts a much narrower pin on an answer, compared to phasing like the "association with" suggested above. The broader phrasing gets the desired response without compromising the facts. And I'm sure other posters here could improve nicely on my above suggestion.
"Centuries-old" puts a pin on it. "Association with" could be improved, you're right...
Xu Donym wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:27 pm But you are absolutely correct that the clue makes its desired answer clear by oversimplifying the history. If that's what Jeopardy! is now about, I mourn the change.
J! has never been interested in complicating things.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

opusthepenguin wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:27 pm
davey wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:00 pm Isn't it obvious that if the clue oversimplifies Ali's relationship with Islam, it's because that's the way his daughter prefers it? The clue accommodates the clue reader. It's a $200 clue and the intended response was clear from "centuries-old." J! doesn't want to be in the business of judging Ali's faith. Nation of Islam is part of Islam as Mormonism is part of Christianity.
So Nation of Islam considers itself to be part of Islam, but Islamists who are not part of Nation of Islam generally don't?
I haven't studied it closely, but that is my sense, yes. I've seen the word "heterodox" used to describe it.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... rec3.12032
And other sources refer to ii as Islamic.
https://www.archives.gov/research/afric ... n-of-islam
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Xu Donym »

opusthepenguin wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:27 pm
davey wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:00 pm Isn't it obvious that if the clue oversimplifies Ali's relationship with Islam, it's because that's the way his daughter prefers it? The clue accommodates the clue reader. It's a $200 clue and the intended response was clear from "centuries-old." J! doesn't want to be in the business of judging Ali's faith. Nation of Islam is part of Islam as Mormonism is part of Christianity.
So Nation of Islam considers itself to be part of Islam, but Islamists who are not part of Nation of Islam generally don't?
It's even more complicated than that. The original NOI split into several factions after the 1975 death of Elijah Muhammad, mostly because the main successor -- Wallace Muhammad, Elijah Muhammad's son -- renounced most of his father's quirkiest non-Islamic doctrines and tried to bring the NOI within the fold of orthodox Islam. Some orthodox Muslims accepted the change, while others chafed at the handful of remaining doctrinal distinctives within the NOI. Most NOI members either followed Wallace Muhammad in the changes, or left the NOI to practice ordinary Sunni Islam. A handful, however, perhaps most notably Louis Farrakhan, founded competing new organizations that retained some or all of Elijah Muhammad's old doctrines.

Imagine reading a clue about some celebrity who, though born in a Christian household, joined Moishe Rosen's "Jews for Jesus" group. There's NO WAY Jeopardy! clue-writers would characterize that as "converting to" Judaism, as it is almost universally understood that a conversion to Jews for Jesus meets none of the requirements that actual Jews require of an actual conversion to Judaism. Before 1975, membership in the Nation of Islam similarly required some beliefs (e.g. about the nature and person of God in the form of W.D. Fard) that no actual Muslim would countenance. So, while there would be a number of legitimate ways to rework the clue, the clue as written was a botch.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by davey »

For anyone interested, the Ken Burns documentary's first part tonight had a long sequence on the unique and unorthodox history and beliefs of the Nation of Islam. At the end, it noted that, after winning the heavyweight championship, Clay/Ali no longer needed to "conceal his Muslim faith." There will be much more in the second part.
Here's how a library reference work, Gale's Contemporary Black Biography, puts it-
While in Miami, at the age of 21, Ali was inspired by human rights activist Malcolm X to become a member of the Muslim faith.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

squarekara wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:30 am In case there's no time or motivation for further research for those who've NHO Malala, I just want to add that she was already famous to some degree when the Taliban plotted to assassinate (yes, "assassinate") her as a 15-year old. Her ongoing crusade for educational rights, at her personal peril, played out on the global stage, and she became the youngest-ever Nobel Peace Prize laureate. Her story goes way beyond mere trivia. It's something everyone should know.
Agreed. I'm somewhat surprised a few people here have said they haven't heard of her. She's pretty much a total badass.
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Re: Thursday, September 16, 2021 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by brick »

alietr wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:17 am Given the Helter Skelter clue, I have to trot out my story again ... In 1975, I went skiing with my brother at Killington in Vermont. We didn’t get along at all, and I decided to head back to New York. The only way back from there was the bus, so I took the bus back to New York. Given that my trip was ruined, I was in a fabulously bad mood and wanted to be left alone.

I had the row to myself, and kept myself occupied by reading Helter Skelter. A few stops went by, and I glanced up at the door and saw that a middle-aged woman had gotten on. She was scanning the bus for a “safe” place to sit, and I was saying to myself “Please don’t sit next to me. Please don’t sit next to me.” Of course, she comes down the aisle and sits next to me even though other seats were available. Then I start saying to myself “Please don’t talk to me. Please don’t talk to me.” Of course, she cheerily starts up a conversation. I kept my head buried in the book and reluctantly mumbled one word answers.

Finally, she asked, “What book are you reading?” I slowly turned toward her, put on just about the evilest grin a teenage nerd could possibly muster, and calmly replied “Helter Skelter. It’s about the Manson murders.” She didn’t say another word to me and got up and moved seats at the next stop.

A few stops later, a teenage girl got on, sat next to me, and was showing me a newspaper clipping of how she and some friends were arrested for stealing a car. I was definitely OK with that.
I was on the edge of my seat, hoping that Squeaky Fromme got on your bus and autographed your copy. Rats! I met one of the Manson girls briefly, around that time.
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