Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Golf »

Robert K S wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:41 am
Golf wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:42 am
what difference does it really make
As she pointed out--her pride only.

Which actually makes it more insulting for them not to have accepted it.

Not only was the ruling flaunting decades of precedent and giving a middle finger to a majority of speakers (a group that includes the question subject himself), it was just mean to Betsy for no gameplay-justifiable reason.
I agreed upthread that the ruling was not consistent with everything we know, no argument there.

But, a rule is a rule and it has to be applied equally regardless of it makes a difference in prize money or placing. It’s not insulting to apply a rule if it doesn’t factor into the result.

It wasn’t mean, it just appears to us to be a misapplication of past rulings. I’d also wager that Alex further explains the ruling at the top of today’s episode. I’d certainly be curious to know.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by kerryoakie »

Robert K S wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:08 pm
kerryoakie wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:56 am
*EDIT* FWIW, I'm a Kerry and I pronounce my name the same way I pronounce Carrie and carry.
And even "Kara" apparently

(as in karaoke)
:lol: I used to work at a Japanese company and OH BOY did my name cause issues. If I spelled it "Kelly," they would pronounce it as "Kerry." If I spelled it "Kerry" I would get something like "Keddy." I got used to the "Dear Kelly-san" emails pretty quickly as I'm sure I butchered many of my colleagues names when attempting to speak Japanese.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by triviawayne »

kerryoakie wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:56 am
This map may be of some interest. It's from a study of regional dialects; others can be found here.

Image

*EDIT* FWIW, I'm a Kerry and I pronounce my name the same way I pronounce Carrie and carry.
well my eastern PA living sure shined through on this thread...
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jev15 »

kerryoakie wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:56 am

*EDIT* FWIW, I'm a Kerry and I pronounce my name the same way I pronounce Carrie and carry.
I can't wait til someone answers a Final Jeopardy clue about Princess Leia with "Kerry Fisher" and we get to have this whole discussion again.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Robert K S »

jev15 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:27 pm
I can't wait til someone answers a Final Jeopardy clue about Princess Leia with "Kerry Fisher" and we get to have this whole discussion again.
Or even just says "Who is Carrie Fisher?" in response to a regular clue and gets negged: "Ooh, sorry, it's CAR-ee Fisher."

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by theFJguy »

I'd post the 9/16/20 summary if the Wednesday thread was up. Hint, hint.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

econgator wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:01 pm
Robert K S wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:41 am
Not only was the ruling flaunting decades of precedent
flouting
Exactly. If the ruling was flaunting decades of precedent, we'd say it was touting them as valid. But it's more like the ruling was taunting decades of precedent setters by refusing to conform, so we say it was flouting the precedents.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by AFRET CMS »

davey wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:03 pm
opusthepenguin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:53 pm
Danmel wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:44 pm
I actually thought they would make a score change for cochineal as a beetle derivative, instead of just insect. Beetle is correct.
Wikipedia says cochineals are of the order Hemiptera. Beetles are of the order Coleoptera. Interestingly, this means that the response "What is a bug?" would or at least should have been accepted. Hemiptera is the order of "true bugs".
Is there a difference between "bugs" and "insects"? Other than pronunciation, of course... ;)
Must be a regional "Mary/merry/marry" thing. Where the Jeopardy judges come from, "bugs" rhymes with "insects".
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MarkBarrett »

Golf wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:10 pm
Robert K S wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:41 am
Golf wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:42 am
what difference does it really make
As she pointed out--her pride only.

Which actually makes it more insulting for them not to have accepted it.

Not only was the ruling flaunting decades of precedent and giving a middle finger to a majority of speakers (a group that includes the question subject himself), it was just mean to Betsy for no gameplay-justifiable reason.
I agreed upthread that the ruling was not consistent with everything we know, no argument there.

But, a rule is a rule and it has to be applied equally regardless of it makes a difference in prize money or placing. It’s not insulting to apply a rule if it doesn’t factor into the result.

It wasn’t mean, it just appears to us to be a misapplication of past rulings. I’d also wager that Alex further explains the ruling at the top of today’s episode. I’d certainly be curious to know.
Nope, no mention on the Wednesday show about the Tuesday FJ! round.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Golf »

MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm
Nope, no mention on the Wednesday show about the Tuesday FJ! round.
Good thing I didn’t wager too much.

Hoping to hear an official response at some point.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by MarkBarrett »

Golf wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:55 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm
Nope, no mention on the Wednesday show about the Tuesday FJ! round.
Good thing I didn’t wager too much.

Hoping to hear an official response at some point.
From Reddit and the 9/16/ thread:

Hello, I’m sure you are getting a lot of emails about this: Is there an official explanation for the Berry / Barry ruling? Did the judges determine them to be pronounced differently (because the rule in the past has been misspellings are okay if they don’t affect pronunciation)?

And the response

In this case “Barry” is a different name. When a contestant adds incorrect information to an otherwise correct response, they are ruled incorrect.

Best,

The Jeopardy! Team

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by AFRET CMS »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:49 am
This Is Kirk! wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:35 am
Someone mentioned "pen" vs. "pin" in a Facebook group in relation to last night's FJ scoring decision. In a good part of the south those two words are pronounced the same and that might give some of us who would pronounce Barry and Berry some perspective. If the FJ clue was something like "He won an Academy Award for his portrayal of Harvey Milk" do you think Sean Pin would be accepted?
Probably not. But in the Barry/Berry case, the majority of Americans pronounce the words the same. With pen/pin it's a minority. I don't know the stats but I'd bet less than 25 percent. That might make a difference.

It does raise an interesting question about whether a contestant's accent should/would be taken into account for written responses. For a spoken response, I suspect they'd accept "Who is Sean Pin?" from a southern belle but not from a southern Californian penguin. And I'd agree with that call. When I say "pin" there's no chance I mean "pen", barring a standard wire-crossing event in the brain. (I.e. "What'd I say? Really? Well, I meant to say 'pen'".) But take that into FJ and should the southern belle get credit for "Who is Pin"? After all, in her accent, that spelling doesn't affect the pronunciation. But what if she and I both wrote down that answer? Imagine the ensuing netsplosion if she got credit and I didn't!
Don't know if this is a common southernism or not, but my mother was from Tennessee. She and her family never used the word "pen" by itself. "Pin" was used by itself to identify the needle-like sharp thing, but the writing implement was always, always identified as "ink pen," since in eastern Tennessee pin and pen evidently rhyme.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by triviawayne »

Golf wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:55 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm
Nope, no mention on the Wednesday show about the Tuesday FJ! round.
Good thing I didn’t wager too much.

Hoping to hear an official response at some point.
ooh...sorry, we have to take the wager away as you pronounced it "wed-ness-day"
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Golf »

MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:57 pm
Golf wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:55 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm
Nope, no mention on the Wednesday show about the Tuesday FJ! round.
Good thing I didn’t wager too much.

Hoping to hear an official response at some point.
From Reddit and the 9/16/ thread:

Hello, I’m sure you are getting a lot of emails about this: Is there an official explanation for the Berry / Barry ruling? Did the judges determine them to be pronounced differently (because the rule in the past has been misspellings are okay if they don’t affect pronunciation)?

And the response

In this case “Barry” is a different name. When a contestant adds incorrect information to an otherwise correct response, they are ruled incorrect.

Best,

The Jeopardy! Team
Thanks.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by This Is Kirk! »

MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:57 pm
Golf wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:55 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:50 pm
Nope, no mention on the Wednesday show about the Tuesday FJ! round.
Good thing I didn’t wager too much.

Hoping to hear an official response at some point.
From Reddit and the 9/16/ thread:

Hello, I’m sure you are getting a lot of emails about this: Is there an official explanation for the Berry / Barry ruling? Did the judges determine them to be pronounced differently (because the rule in the past has been misspellings are okay if they don’t affect pronunciation)?

And the response

In this case “Barry” is a different name. When a contestant adds incorrect information to an otherwise correct response, they are ruled incorrect.

Best,

The Jeopardy! Team
They might as well have just said "Barry is a man's name and Berry is a fruit."

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by Stanislaus Jacob »

kerryoakie wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:56 am
FWIW, I'm a Kerry and I pronounce my name the same way I pronounce Carrie and carry.
You in fact prove the point more than anyone else here. To my ears your board name is an almost pun - good enough for a message board name, but not exact. But to your ears, which are obviously the ones that matter, your name is a perfect pun.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by opusthepenguin »

MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:57 pm
From Reddit and the 9/16/ thread:

Hello, I’m sure you are getting a lot of emails about this: Is there an official explanation for the Berry / Barry ruling? Did the judges determine them to be pronounced differently (because the rule in the past has been misspellings are okay if they don’t affect pronunciation)?

And the response

In this case “Barry” is a different name. When a contestant adds incorrect information to an otherwise correct response, they are ruled incorrect.

Best,

The Jeopardy! Team
Oh. Fortunately for Brian Hamilton (or UNfortunately for Avishai Gebler as the case may be), Katharine and Katherine are NOT different names.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by AFRET CMS »

opusthepenguin wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:10 pm
MarkBarrett wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:57 pm
From Reddit and the 9/16/ thread:

Hello, I’m sure you are getting a lot of emails about this: Is there an official explanation for the Berry / Barry ruling? Did the judges determine them to be pronounced differently (because the rule in the past has been misspellings are okay if they don’t affect pronunciation)?

And the response

In this case “Barry” is a different name. When a contestant adds incorrect information to an otherwise correct response, they are ruled incorrect.

Best,

The Jeopardy! Team
Oh. Fortunately for Brian Hamilton (or UNfortunately for Avishai Gebler as the case may be), Katharine and Katherine are NOT different names.
But my wife's name is Kathryn. Two syllables, not an virtually inaudible schwa. Wonder if "Kathryn Hepburn" instead of "Katharine Hepburn" would be negged in FJ. Or if a contestant orally answered Kathryn instead of Katharine. Or Katherine. Or Catherine.
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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by jeff6286 »

I hope no one ever writes "What is the Pitcher of Dorian Gray?"! That might set off a firestorm of nukular proportions.

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Re: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 Game Recap and Discussion (SPOILERS)

Post by talkingaway »

That's funny about the official J! response, because I was just thinking through the logic in the same way. I actually still agree with the judges.

My last name is Conley - two syllables. Some other common variants include Connolly and Connelly, with three syllables. I've always noticed that people often misspell my name, and I've always termed it as "misspell". They're (presumably) derived from the same root - probably someone at Ellis Island misheard and/or miswrote the name of an erstwhile potato farmer.

But is it really a "misspelling", or is it a different name? Where's the line drawn? I think J! would call Conley wrong for Connolly based on the emancipitation ruling, but Connolly and Connelly would be the same because they're pronounced the same.

If Berry is just a unique, fun alternate spelling of Barry, then she got robbed. If it's a completely new name (and, personally, I think it is, but I'd need some etymological research to back it up and would be open to changing my mind), then the ruling was right.

One other point: I have no problem with "one-off question rules". For example, I don't think you have to say "Martin Luther King, Jr.", but I think you might have to say "Cal Ripken, Jr.". But hopefully in reviewing the clues, they noticed the odd spelling of Berry in FJ!, and decided IN ADVANCE whether to accept Barry. If you have that on the answer sheet, it obviates any reasonable charge of favoritism - "We know there's a snafu in spelling the first name, and we'll ONLY accept the correct variant of the first name."

And we're not asking for the spelling of Gyllenhaal - when you get 20% of the letters wrong, you're setting yourself up for problems.

I'm actually a bit more surprised that FJ! was a (nominal) TS, or a 1/3 if you count Barry. Then again, I listened to The Big Chill soundtrack every day when my mom drove me to elementary school, which is majorty Motown/Motown family, and I did see Motown: The Musical a couple of years ago and did my requisite brief research before seeing it. In fact, I'm 99% sure I saw the 60th anniversary special in 2019 - CBS broadcast it, and it sounds like something I'd record and watch.

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